Talk:Meantone family: Difference between revisions

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:::::::: For the record, the extension in question maps 7/4 to C-G𝄪𝄪(*) (fifthspan +29), so it is a way-augmented fifth, not just a fifth.

:::::::: [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 17:19, 26 August 2025 (UTC)

:::::::: That's acceptable overall. So to be clear, the extensions we seem to be in agreement on getting rid of would be: meantonic, meridetonic (make sauveuric the canonical 19-limit meridetone), meanplop, meanundec, and meanundeci (along with 13-limit extensions of domineering and arnold), and we'd want to document 31 & 74, 74 & 43, possibly 19 & 50, along with Lucius's extensions. That still leaves the question of nomenclature. I don't believe that "meantone" should be canonical beyond the 11-limit, since huygens and meanpop are about as good as each other. I *do* think that grosstone should be canonical with respect to huygens though, at least to the 13-limit. (I also don't really like the name "grosstone", honestly.)

:::::::: So one proposal would be to recycle "meantonic" for what's currently tridecimal meantone and 17-19-limit "huygens". Currently, the "meantonic" extension seems to be mentioned, outside of the "Meantone family" page and discussion directly pertaining, solely on the [[17/16 (Korean)|Korean article for 17/16]], so I don't think this proposal is very demanding. Then we can call grosstone, at least unto the 13-limit, "tridecimal huygens". I'm not sure whether I'd want canonicity to continue after that to the 19-limit, so we can keep "grosstone" as the name for 31 & 43 in the 17- and 19-limits.

:::::::: We also should maybe address hemimeantone, semimeantone, and bimeantone. I think the issue with most of these extensions is that they're best treated outside of the hierarchy of prime limits (trimean definitely is, since no-sevens superpine is more natural compared to either of its extensions to prime 7), but other than that I'm not sure of the redundancy of any of them. --[[User:Lériendil|Lériendil]] ([[User talk:Lériendil|talk]]) 22:59, 26 August 2025 (UTC)

::::::::: Hmm, my only minor issue is 13-limit grosstone's canonicity w.r.t. 11-limit huygens. I have my own doubts here, and as I showed you in the archive, at least two ppl believed it was actually inferior to the current 13-limit meantone for one reason or another. Meanwhile, I do think the current 17- and 19-limit grosstone are good enough to be virtual canon w.r.t. 13-limit grosstone so I might call it ''grosstonic'' (cf. ''miraculous'' and ''miracle''). So these all point to not changing 13-limit grosstone itself. (Renaming it to something completely different is another topic.)

::::::::: I don't see a problem with hemimeantone, semimeantone, or bimeantone. They are 43 & 62, 62 & 74, and 38df & 50, respectively, which all look reasonable as they are. The 50 & 62 temp is even missing, which we may call semimeanpop. Trimean is 43 & 50 and superpine is 36 & 43. The 2.3.5.11.13 part are the same and 43edo is the turning point for primes 7, 17, and 19. I see that the 2.3.5.11.13-subgroup temp is already documented in the No-sevens subgroup temperaments page. Does that mean the 7-limit-based entries should be removed from this page? Idk.

::::::::: [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 09:52, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

::::::::: P.S. I propose ''fokkertone'' for current 13-limit meantone, in analog to ''meridetone''.

=== Summary of changes ===

Based on the review above, the following changes have been made.

# Decanonicalized tridecimal meantone. Renamed it to ''fokkertone''.

# Canonicalized 17- and 19-limit huygens w.r.t. tridecimal meantone, thus effectively also renaming it to ''fokkertone''. Removed meantonic, the other 17- and 19-limit extension of tridecimal meantone.

# Canonicalized 17- and 19-limit sauveric, thus effectively renaming it to ''meridetone''. Removed meridetonic, the other 17- and 19-limit extension of meridetone.

# Removed meanplop (12e & 19), the other 13-limit extension of 11-limit meanpop.

# Removed meanundec (12f & 19f), a 13-limit extension of 11-limit meanenneadecal.

# Removed meanundeci (12e & 19e), an 11-limit extension of septimal meantone.

# Removed domineering and arnold, two extensions of dominant, from the 13-limit onwards.

# Added mildtone (55 & 67) for the 7-limit.

# Add semimeanpop (50 & 62) up to the 19-limit.

=== Remaining tasks ===

# Devise names for the three 17- and 19-limit extensions of grosstone: 31 & 74, 43 & 74, and possibly 31 & 43.

[[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 08:38, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

@@ Line 293: / Line 293: @@
 :::::::: For the record, the extension in question maps 7/4 to C-G𝄪𝄪(*) (fifthspan +29), so it is a way-augmented fifth, not just a fifth.
 :::::::: [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 17:19, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
+:::::::: That's acceptable overall. So to be clear, the extensions we seem to be in agreement on getting rid of would be: meantonic, meridetonic (make sauveuric the canonical 19-limit meridetone), meanplop, meanundec, and meanundeci (along with 13-limit extensions of domineering and arnold), and we'd want to document 31 & 74, 74 & 43, possibly 19 & 50, along with Lucius's extensions. That still leaves the question of nomenclature. I don't believe that "meantone" should be canonical beyond the 11-limit, since huygens and meanpop are about as good as each other. I *do* think that grosstone should be canonical with respect to huygens though, at least to the 13-limit. (I also don't really like the name "grosstone", honestly.)
+:::::::: So one proposal would be to recycle "meantonic" for what's currently tridecimal meantone and 17-19-limit "huygens". Currently, the "meantonic" extension seems to be mentioned, outside of the "Meantone family" page and discussion directly pertaining, solely on the [[17/16 (Korean)|Korean article for 17/16]], so I don't think this proposal is very demanding. Then we can call grosstone, at least unto the 13-limit, "tridecimal huygens". I'm not sure whether I'd want canonicity to continue after that to the 19-limit, so we can keep "grosstone" as the name for 31 & 43 in the 17- and 19-limits.
+:::::::: We also should maybe address hemimeantone, semimeantone, and bimeantone. I think the issue with most of these extensions is that they're best treated outside of the hierarchy of prime limits (trimean definitely is, since no-sevens superpine is more natural compared to either of its extensions to prime 7), but other than that I'm not sure of the redundancy of any of them. --[[User:Lériendil|Lériendil]] ([[User talk:Lériendil|talk]]) 22:59, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
+::::::::: Hmm, my only minor issue is 13-limit grosstone's canonicity w.r.t. 11-limit huygens. I have my own doubts here, and as I showed you in the archive, at least two ppl believed it was actually inferior to the current 13-limit meantone for one reason or another. Meanwhile, I do think the current 17- and 19-limit grosstone are good enough to be virtual canon w.r.t. 13-limit grosstone so I might call it ''grosstonic'' (cf. ''miraculous'' and ''miracle''). So these all point to not changing 13-limit grosstone itself. (Renaming it to something completely different is another topic.)
+::::::::: I don't see a problem with hemimeantone, semimeantone, or bimeantone. They are 43 & 62, 62 & 74, and 38df & 50, respectively, which all look reasonable as they are. The 50 & 62 temp is even missing, which we may call semimeanpop. Trimean is 43 & 50 and superpine is 36 & 43. The 2.3.5.11.13 part are the same and 43edo is the turning point for primes 7, 17, and 19. I see that the 2.3.5.11.13-subgroup temp is already documented in the No-sevens subgroup temperaments page. Does that mean the 7-limit-based entries should be removed from this page? Idk.
+::::::::: [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 09:52, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
+::::::::: P.S. I propose ''fokkertone'' for current 13-limit meantone, in analog to ''meridetone''.
+=== Summary of changes ===
+Based on the review above, the following changes have been made.
+# Decanonicalized tridecimal meantone. Renamed it to ''fokkertone''.
+# Canonicalized 17- and 19-limit huygens w.r.t. tridecimal meantone, thus effectively also renaming it to ''fokkertone''. Removed meantonic, the other 17- and 19-limit extension of tridecimal meantone.
+# Canonicalized 17- and 19-limit sauveric, thus effectively renaming it to ''meridetone''. Removed meridetonic, the other 17- and 19-limit extension of meridetone.
+# Removed meanplop (12e & 19), the other 13-limit extension of 11-limit meanpop.
+# Removed meanundec (12f & 19f), a 13-limit extension of 11-limit meanenneadecal.
+# Removed meanundeci (12e & 19e), an 11-limit extension of septimal meantone.
+# Removed domineering and arnold, two extensions of dominant, from the 13-limit onwards.
+# Added mildtone (55 & 67) for the 7-limit.
+# Add semimeanpop (50 & 62) up to the 19-limit.
+=== Remaining tasks ===
+# Devise names for the three 17- and 19-limit extensions of grosstone: 31 & 74, 43 & 74, and possibly 31 & 43.
+[[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 08:38, 22 October 2025 (UTC)