User talk:PiotrGrochowski

Main page

Hi Piotr - we saw you added large text to the top of the main page about "Incomplete pages." We removed this as we want to keep the main page clean -- the whole Wiki has plenty of *lot* of incomplete pages and you should add them to the Wikifuture pages. But the pages you added aren't on the original Wiki - it looks like you made them yourself? Where did you get them from? Some of them would be good to complete (Kleisma and so on), but others seem strange to me, like 0/0, which I haven't heard many people try to use as a legit musical interval. Mike Battaglia (talk) 12:50, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

That's like having a dirty house inside and removing the sign that it needs cleaning. This wiki needs more edo articles to progress but I can't add placeholders anymore because there are already several. And I don't know how to add additional info to the "Table of..." articles (see Category:Interval list).

I thought you were saying the MediaWiki import from the old wiki was incomplete or somehow screwed up. I didn't realize you were just saying the Wiki is in general a work in progress (which is true). I changed the language on the front page to make that clearer. I just didn't want a big thing like that at the top of the page, since it seemed like there was an error in the import or something wrong with the site, rather than a general call to create new pages. Mike Battaglia (talk) 13:14, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Also, what do you mean by not being able to add info to those articles? They should be editable using either the visual editor or regular editor...

The 31edo page has lots of info. The 107edo page is lacking in info. I just don't know what is notable or what commas it tempers out. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 16:20, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi Piotr

Great to see you here :) --Xenwolf (talk) 09:22, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Why Coming soon?

Hi Piotr,
what's the idea behind pages like this?
From my long-year wiki experience, it's better to start not too many pages at once, it's hard to keep them up to date.
Best, --Xenwolf (talk) 17:07, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

It's so the users can see what xen.wiki was in the past. I repeat: Coming soon PiotrGrochowski (talk) 18:23, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

FYI Piotr, while I am happy to give you room to do your thing, I think pages like "Coming soon" will be confusing to new users. I appreciate your sense of humor though, and think lots of your ideas are pretty funny (love calling the logo "The Xen"!), and you have been really helpful in creating new content here for the new Wiki. Mike Battaglia (talk) 17:09, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

dev.xen.wiki

Piotr, just FYI, dev.xen.wiki is a testing page for us to do development stuff. Feel free to play around and make changes there, but just know that any changes there aren't permanent - we will periodically wiping that wiki clean and refreshing it with new stuff. Sometimes we will import the "en" wiki there, sometimes "es", etc, for us to test changes... Mike Battaglia (talk) 17:09, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

You can't however test hard redirects, as they don't work in dev.xen.wiki. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 17:20, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Piotr - the thing you are calling "hard redirects" are really "interwiki redirects." If you want to link to dev, you can do dev:Main_Page, for example. If you put ":en" in a redirect on the dev wiki, it will simply redirect to the English language wiki. Mike Battaglia (talk) 18:04, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm calling that "hard redirects" because it has a similar effect to "hard redirects" in wikispaces, see http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/wiki+help#x-Using%20links-Redirects. And you're wrong that :en: in dev.xen.wiki will redirect to en.xen.wiki, because dev:2 1 does not work. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 18:11, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Piotr, the "en" thing is not a redirect code, it is just a special interwiki code. For example, look at purdal:Home, or purdal:Migration_FAQ, which redirects to en:Migration_FAQ. But you are right about dev, which is a bug! Dev should have interwiki set up, but it doesn't. I'll add it later Mike Battaglia (talk) 10:48, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

It however has the "hard redirect" effect, and because wikispaces had hard redirects, they are pretty much necessary to include in Wiki help#Redirects. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 10:51, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

I found about dev.xen.wiki by looking at description of some of your edits.
Text replacement - "(\[\[\:(dev|es|purdal|de|en):[^[:space:]\|]*) (.*])" to "$1|$3"
Text replacement - "(\[\[\:(dev|es|purdal|de|en):[^[:space:]\|]*) (.*])" to "$1|$3"
So, I went to dev.xen.wiki for curiosity. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 09:04, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Vandalism

I saw that you added a redirect to the top of Main_Page that leads to Special:Block/PiotrGrochowski. This wiki has a very open policy, just like it did at Wikispaces. It is easy for anyone to join and contribute. If you want to experiment and try to break things, feel free to do that with your own installation of MediaWiki, or on the dev site. Tyler (talk) 10:57, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Some experiments however are not possible in dev. Compare en:2 1 and dev:2 1. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 10:38, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Piotr, the thing is, this website gets a lot of visitors, so when you break the Main Page, it interferes with people's ability to see the site unless you change it back really fast. Why did you have the Main Page redirect to Special:Block/PiotrGrochowski? What was your experiment there? If you are going to do an experiment, do it on dev -- if you really can't do it on dev, and it's important, then you have to try to do it in a way that doesn't interfere with others - everyone who went to xen.wiki got sent to the Block page and couldn't see the wiki while you changed it! Those kinds of experiments are dangerous. The rule is you must clean up after yourself if you do anything like that here. Thank you Mike Battaglia (talk) 10:59, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Rules for tidiness

Piotr, after talking internally with the admin pages, we want to use these rules: If you are going to do any HTML, MediaWiki, "crash," or redirect tests, please do it at dev. If you are going to make tuning pages, please do it at en. Your tuning pages are great! And it is ok that you are learning about MediaWiki, but please do those changes at dev. I will get prefixes like "en" working on dev later today (called "Interwiki") so you can experiment with redirects there.

If you ever want to do a MediaWiki experiment that you can't do on dev, please ask one of us admins first and we will see what can be done. But please, no matter what, do not do anything like that on en, especially to the main page. We do not want to break the wiki for everyone else.

Thank you Piotr! - Mike Battaglia (talk) 11:46, 22 September 2018 (UTC) Mike Battaglia (talk) 11:46, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Resetting my password on dev?

Why did you try to reset my password on dev? Don't play around like that - we can see Mike Battaglia (talk) 12:16, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Isn't dev: supposed to be for testing?! PiotrGrochowski (talk) 12:18, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Testing for MediaWiki pages, yes, but don't test hacking my account! What kind of testing are you trying to do? I thought you wanted to try redirects and HTML and stuff - why try to reset my password? Mike Battaglia (talk) 12:23, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Testing for MediaWiki pages, yes, but don't test hacking my account! What kind of testing are you trying to do? I thought you wanted to try redirects and HTML and stuff - why not try to reset my password? Mike Battaglia (talk) 12:23, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Fixed that. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 12:28, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

The answer to "why not reset my password" is because it creates a headache and makes me do extra work if I have to reset my password. This sort of thing is usually a bannable offense - while we enjoy you being here, you cannot do things that give us more work. Again: don't play with stuff like that! We don't want to ban you, but that's really serious. Mike Battaglia (talk) 16:52, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Patent val mappings and direct mappings - using both

Hi Piotr, just saw you added a bunch of patent val mappings to the EDO pages. This is very good information to have. It is also a good reference to have the "direct" mappings, even if inconsistent - we use these a lot for generating subgroup mappings, so I've added both to each page. There is also the concept of the "best" mapping using generalized patent vals - I don't know if that is on the wiki yet, but it would be good to add if not. Mike Battaglia (talk) 18:20, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Do you like https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/247892491/? I can't easily reprogram it to use the closest matches instead of patent ones though, as the project calculates the errors for 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 and 15 (9 and 15 from the patent val), and it's hardwired so that each fraction has been given a text fraction pair and a code, e.g. the code 15 standing for "add the error for 3, subtract the error for 11" for 12/11, 11/6 (1=3, 2=5, 3=7, 4=9, 5=11, 6=13, 7=15). PiotrGrochowski (talk) 18:27, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Wiping Dev

Hi Piotr - we need to wipe dev soon to restart it from scratch. Are there any pages on there you want to save? Mike Battaglia (talk) 15:38, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

No, everything Xen has done is testing, except for The Xen which is now present here too. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 15:43, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

OK, we have erased it. Can you sign up there again? Thanks Mike Battaglia (talk) 15:49, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

OK, I saw your new account and saved it so you do not have to re-sign up every time we erase it. It's currently synchronizing with the English wiki, so give it 15 minutes and should be working. Mike Battaglia (talk) 15:54, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Hello Piotr - we just reset dev. Can you confirm your email address? Let me know once you do and I will then save dev again from this point, so that every time we reset it, it doesn't reset your user. Thanks Mike Battaglia (talk) 07:18, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Done! PiotrGrochowski (talk) 16:54, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

OK, we have saved it - you shouldn't have to re-confirm every time. Mike Battaglia (talk) 17:37, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

15edo-a

Hi Piotr - 15edo-a isn't a different tuning, Igs is just making a temporary 15edo page for now. He went to sleep and will be updating the main 15edo page with the info tomorrow. You should join us on Facebook at [1] - that's where we've been talking about this stuff Mike Battaglia (talk) 05:22, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

That's confusing; pages like 306edo talking about 306c tempering out different commas not explaining what it is, etc. that confused me into thinking like this. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 05:24, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

That's ok, but can you please not keep making -a, -a-a, etc pages? They were temporary and part of a discussion on the Facebook group; they were always intended to be merged back into the original pages. Mike Battaglia (talk) 23:40, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

hard reditrect

Hi Piotr,
this was new to me :-) thanks. Maybe the sidebar should probable link to the help namespace. I'm not sure if moving help stuff into the help NS gets consensus in the FB group. Are you on FB meanwhile, if not: are you planning to create an account there?
Best --Xenwolf (talk) 12:54, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

See redirect for more information about redirects. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 12:58, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

I see. A small usability consideration: sometimes (well, not in the current case with the help page) it's good to see that a page is the result of a redirect, I don't consider redirects per se as bad. --Xenwolf (talk) 13:13, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Editor pages

These pages are an (in my opinion) outdated concept, introduces in the Wikispaces era, to compensate the lack of real user pages. User:Carl Lumma and I (Xenwolf) were the only members that made use of it, so it seems that Editor PiotrGrochowski would better redirect to your user page again. If there will be a help page about user pages, the Editor yourName will most likely be transformed into a redirect to that help page. But: What do you think about this topic? Best --Xenwolf (talk) 16:29, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Editor pages are for information about the user, user pages are for possible testing. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 19:14, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Editor pages should still be in the User namespace then. —Keenan Pepper (talk) 19:15, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Wait, maybe I misunderstood what you're saying. If you're talking about an article about the person, because they're notable in the xenharmonic community (for example Harry Partch or something), then it should just be that person's name, without the word "Editor". —Keenan Pepper (talk) 19:16, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

I assume by User namespace you mean pages like User:PiotrGrochowski and NOT User:PiotrGrochowski/Ups and Downs Notation-a. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 19:18, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Both of those pages are in the User namespace. In fact, anything that begins with "User:" is. See https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Namespaces for more info about Mediawiki namespaces. —Keenan Pepper (talk) 19:22, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree with this. All drafts/sandboxes should be in the User namespace. —Keenan Pepper (talk) 19:12, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Don't forget that there is an official SandBox page for every user to try out some wiki markup, or to discuss stuff with other users. @Piotr: the Editor_ suffix was a surrogate for a real user namespace (Wikispaces had no namespaces). The user namespace is the user page and all subpages whereas - by convention - a users's subpages "belong" to the prefixing user (if not indicated otherwise). The talk pages are by default open to other users. --Xenwolf (talk) 19:29, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Status of Ups and Downs Notation, and personal attacks in edit summaries

I'm going to restore Ups and Downs Notation back to the main namespace. I don't like to revert people's actions without a thorough explanation, so here goes: I moved articles like 15edo-b, Wikifuture-a, etc. into user namespaces since I believed the intent of the people creating them was as drafts or sandboxes, and not permanent articles meant to live on the wiki indefinitely. These drafts should be stored in the User namespace since they're not meant as final, published articles, but instead eventually meant to replace (or be merged into) the main articles at 15edo, Wikifuture. Importantly, I believed the authors of these pages would likely not be angry that I moved them, because they can keep working on them with basically no interruption, and it aligns with what they want to do. (I can't be sure of that, but it was my sincere belief.)

Now, for Ups and Downs Notation the story seems quite different to me. I think it was on the old wiki for a while, and on this new wiki it's always been on the main namespace with no indication that it's any kind of draft or sandbox. Moving it to a user subpage might send the unfriendly message that that user's contributions are not welcome here, and they're going to be marginalized or outcast. Personal attacks like "K**e curse" in edit summaries certainly do nothing to help this, and I consider them uncivil.

Instead of doing things like this, I encourage you to edit articles directly. If you wanted to, I don't think it would be unwelcome to add a "Criticism" section or otherwise change the article to reflect that much of the content is not the consensus of all editors here. As long as we're civil to each other and have the common goal of improving articles, I think even people with widely differing opinions can work together to improve the wiki. —Keenan Pepper (talk) 17:26, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

List style

Hi Piotr,
please don't try to push the <ul><li></li></ul> style into the wiki. The wiki idea is that you have to know few or - better - no markup for adding (or editing) content. This way it's really easy to see how the wiki text relates to the HTML output. You may even read the article without transforming it into HTML. Why do you prefer to embed HTML tags if it isn't necessary at all (MediaWiki transforms it into HTML automatically). Are you maybe using the visual editor?
Best --Xenwolf (talk) 20:31, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

We just discussing the issue on Facebook, here I read - let me cite: "the proper, canonical syntax" on a wiki is wiki markup ^{Jonathan Bright} and One only breaks into HTML if there is no support for the markup, and lists are supported. ^{Joe McMahon} - all in all, there is not a single vote pro your preference. Please tell me what's your point. --Xenwolf (talk) 20:42, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

I haven't ever used the visual editor on xen.wiki and I don't want to. I live my life without overcomplications of the list model. PiotrGrochowski (info, talk, contribs) 07:44, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

I removed a partial addition

Hi Piotr,
you started adding a column in the page 15edo-interval names which broke the table, that's why I removed it (I beg your understanding). Feel free to re-add a whole column, but for linking to background information (I'm talking about Extra-Diatonic Intervals), it would be better use a page in the main namespace (soon), so that also others feel invited to elaborate about your idea.
Best --Xenwolf (talk) 09:40, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Stop saying you're the best. It's annoying. PiotrGrochowski (info, talk, contribs) 06:51, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Pardon?

I'm a bit confused about your way to explain things. --Xenwolf (talk) 15:53, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

You said you intentionally left out the link, so you are hiding some secret. I deleted my section because I can't trust you like this. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 15:56, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Accidental reversion on Spanish Wiki

Hello Piotr, just wanted to let you know that while I was updating the discussion page format on the Spanish wiki, I screwed up and we had to revert to the last SQL backup. This has had the unfortunate effect of reverting two of your edits, which I think were under the name "Piotr's Sock Puppet" or something like that. My apologies! This was unintentional; you may need to re-add these. Mike Battaglia (talk) 18:08, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Name Calling

Hello Piotr,

I wanted to address the name calling that you made on User_talk:TallKite's page here: [[2]]

This is not appropriate behavior for this wiki. Namecalling is not acceptable and is generally a bannable offense. I know there is a language barrier here, and I'm not sure if you understand the meaning of the word "creepy," but it is considered an insult in English. We are giving you some slack here as we would usually ban for this right away, because we know that English is your second language and you may not 100% understand the meaning of your words. However, please refrain from such language in the future. Mike Battaglia (talk) 18:18, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Piotr, to add to this, I see you had cursed at Kite in the edit logs (K**e is so f*****g creepy). This is really unacceptable; we have temporarily blocked your account from editing the wiki for three days. You can still view the Wiki but not edit (except for this page). When the ban expires you can edit again. Please do not ever curse at users here; we want this to be a positive atmosphere for everyone. Thank you. Mike Battaglia (talk) 18:37, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

The Piotr Notation system

Hello Piotr,

I wanted to explain the situation with Kite's notation system. Simply put, he is writing a book on his theory, and we are documenting it on the Wiki. We want this to be a place to document everyone's ideas, whether they are yours or Kite's, as though this were an encyclopedia. No notation is perfect, but we think if we have everything here, composers will be able to decide which one they like best!

It looks like you have some good ideas for a notation system. I am very interested to understand more what they are. Unfortunately, the way things are set up now, it is difficult to see what the differences are between yours and Kite's system. This isn't your fault, but it's because the Wiki format does not make it easy to see the difference between two pages.

But we all see you are interested in this stuff and would like to encourage you to contribute. I thought one of the following two options would work best:

1. Perhaps you simply have some suggested additions to Kite's system. If this is the case, then rather than just copying Kite's page, why not make a page called "Piotr's suggested alterations to Kite's Ups and Downs Notation System", where the differences are clearly listed. That is, rather than copying Kite's page and just changing stuff, simply writing your thoughts about which things should be different, and why. This is just to make it easier for us to understand your ideas, because right now your page looks exactly the same as Kite's page, with some minor differences, and everyone has to search side by side to try to find what they are.

2. Or, if you are interested in notation systems, why not go all the way and make a Piotr notation system? Instead of saying it's "Piotr's version of Kite's system," why not simply develop your very own system that can be exactly the way you want, designed exactly the way you like it? Of course you can use Kite's ideas or page as a starting point, but if you have some good thoughts for a notation system, then I think you should feel free to make it your system, not just a variant of Kite's! It can go in whatever direction you like.

Believe me, nobody's system is perfect, not Kite's, not anyone's! But I am also interested in designing a notation system, and I would be happy to work with you on this, to the extent that I have time. I created an outline for a KISS_notation many years ago, but the page needs work... Mike Battaglia (talk) 01:06, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean by the wiki setup? The differences are here: https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Ups_and_Downs_Notation&type=revision&diff=34008&oldid=35895https://en.xen.wiki/w/Special:ComparePages?page1=Ups+and+Downs+Notation&rev1=&page2=User%3APiotrGrochowski%2FUps+and+Downs+Notation-a&rev2=&action=&diffonly=&unhide=

I made User:PiotrGrochowski/Ups and Downs Notation-a because in my opinion, just like the edos, it's something that is a result of maths existing. It's neither Kite's, mine, yours or anyone else's. The difference is that all Kite's conventions are removed; scales now start with C and not D, augmented unison is included for 12edo, pentatonic scales removed, etc. PiotrGrochowski (talk) 14:46, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Piotr - the thing is, as Kite continues to change his page, it will become difficult to see the differences between his page and yours. The link you gave above will only do a diff between the old version of his page and your current page. If you are not interested in making a new notation system, it would be helpful to make a page that emphasizes the difference between your sytem and his, so we can see what they are. Mike Battaglia (talk) 07:32, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Stop calling it my system when it isn't! Kite minus Kite is no one. PiotrGrochowski (info, talk, contribs) 15:45, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Regardless, still, it would be helpful to make a page that emphasizes the differences between what you are proposing and what he is proposing. Mike Battaglia (talk) 17:54, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

A word about templates

Hello Piotr,
I understand your idea to include (some) templates into the Category:Shortcuts but you are doing it wrong: if you place [[Category:Shortcuts]] into a template without surrounding it by <noinclude> and </noinclude>, you cause the including (or "transcluding") pages to be added to this category, what may be intended, but obviously not in this very case (currently SandBox is categorized as a Shortcut but in fact it isn't). BTW I protected Template:Monzo to help you concentrate on fixing the problems in Template:List fist.
Best regards --Xenwolf (talk) 17:24, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

broken ratios

Good to point on this! But I'd do it openly in your place. Maybe by typing "broken ratio!" behind the wrong numbers so that everyone can see the error. (If he/she is so smart as to understand that an 0-ending in numerator and denominator clearly indicates a rounding error). I woudn't hide the errors by commenting them out. Best --Xenwolf (talk) 22:21, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Scratch programming

Hi Piotr,
you seem to be a Scratch programmer. What are the prerequisites to run these programs? Is it possible from within modern Browsers? Doesn't is need a Flash Player?
BTW: Do you also program in other languages?
Best --Xenwolf (talk) 22:01, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

The projects run on Flash. It's possible to use Flash in Android using the Puffin Browser. PiotrGrochowski (info, talk, contribs) 05:09, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Also, the generator I was talking about in Talk:13-limit/WikispacesArchive was also made in Scratch, although it wasn't shared. PiotrGrochowski (info, talk, contribs) 05:10, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Your list modelling efforts

Hi Piotr,
MediaWiki has a built-in list feature that makes it easy to add and maintain lists (unordered, ordered, mixed) on wiki pages. This is for a purpose. If you are interested in doing it the hard way yourself, maybe invest your time into it. But stop wasting other people's time with it. If you wish to suggest technical improvements to the wiki community, try to discuss it first. If not on Facebook then here on talk pages or in separate project pages (in the project namespace). You may as well be bold and introduce it into normal pages but be open to accept that the feedback may differ from you expectations. Don't push your ideas into the wiki by pretending they're common conventions. Believe me, there are lots of people here that are absolute familiar with HTML. Wikis were invented to avoid HTML wherever possible, I thought you knew about that. Please move your list model project into the project namespace. You may link to it from your user namespace at will. You may also link to it from talk pages if you explain why.
Best regards --Xenwolf (talk) 06:43, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

You are very biased towards that list model. The Conventions are not biased towards any particular list model. What you're describing is wikispaces, which is closing for a reason. Not to mention it's a pain to get newlines in many environments. Please stop being biased. PiotrGrochowski (info, talk, contribs) 06:51, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

last warning

Immediately repair the damage you have done since your blocking ended. In an acceptable way. No kidding. You have one hour. If you don't, you will be blocked for one week - the deadline is 10:35 local time (CEST) --Xenwolf (talk) 07:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

I did not do any damage. It's already repaired. You will not ban me. PiotrGrochowski (info, talk, contribs) 08:19, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

I see only one constructive edit in these You are still promoting forcefully (without any regard) your pointless list model. You have 6 minutes left.. --Xenwolf (talk) 08:29, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

What? All of these are constructive, no list model is pointless and you are the one promoting a specific list model. PiotrGrochowski (info, talk, contribs) 08:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

You have been blocked for one month week to carefully study what's been going on in the last ≈90 minutes. --Xenwolf (talk) 08:47, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for contributing again

Hello Piotr,
I ask you to do a critical review of what you are calling "list model". There will be very few people that will call it like this. And, much more important, MediaWiki will export valid HTML lists for the simplified wiki markup (#, * and ;+:) as well as for list built via HTML markup, the same is true for your templates, but not for the other "options". Please have a look on the resulting HTML delivered by MediaWiki, I mean: check the delivered HTML source code (for example Ctrl+U for Firefox under Windows).
Thanks in advance!
--Xenwolf (talk) 15:10, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

The list models need not have the same HTML output. Plaintext lists are named so because the output is plaintext, so it can be copied anywhere, including personal notes in Notepad or in the <pre></pre> safety zone. Defined lists intentionally override the MediaWiki list styling for a defined one. All of these are valid HTML. Do you see any HTML errors in your browser's debugger in SandBox#List model? PiotrGrochowski (info, talk, contribs) 17:39, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Why on earth are you insisting to re-invent the wheel??

The wiki source code is meant to be the ideal fall-back version. That's why it's a bad idea to overcomplicate it. In MediaWiki it's easy to get access to the source code, even if in read-only mode (BTW: did you know ?action=raw). Do you really believe that someone is interested in adding unreadable number pictures and hard-coded line breaks, if styling is normally based on CSS these times? Here is what W3Cschools have to say about HTML Lists. Please consider to further clarify your intention with the help of some sensible reference. --Xenwolf (talk) 18:08, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Not everything has to go along your or W3C's opinions. PiotrGrochowski (info, talk, contribs) 09:05, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Serious warning

You are obviously unable to present your intention in a polite and understandable manner. I assume that your intrusive changes will result in you being permanently put into read-only mode in the near future. I very much regret that you have such difficulties with self-criticism. It is still open how long your writing pause will last. I know from some dedicated Xenwiki users that they plead for a permanent ban and resent me for not having you permanently blocked already. Do me (and you!) a favor and undo your last changes.

--Xenwolf (talk) 13:06, 24 October 2018 (UTC)