Meantone vs meanpop
"11-limit meantone" and "meanpop", both discussed at Meantone family, are two different temperaments in the 11 limit. This page compares and contrasts them in detail.
Extending meantone from the 5 limit to the 7 limit, there is one obvious mapping that is not too complex and adds hardly any additional error (so we're not talking about dominant temperament here). This is called "7-limit meantone" or "septimal meantone" and is an amazingly efficient (and beautiful) temperament. But extending it from the 7 limit to the 11 limit is not so simple. There are two mappings that are comparable in complexity and error: 11-limit meantone and meanpop.
In 11-limit meantone, 11/8 is represented by the doubly augmented third, for example C-Ex (where "x" represents the standard double sharp symbol, equivalent in meaning to "##"). This is 18 fifths along the circle of fifths; Ex is 18 fifths up from C.
In meanpop, 11/8 is represented by the doubly diminished fifth, for example C-Gbb. This is in the opposite direction along the circle of fifths - 13 fifths down.
In 13–limit, they extend by the 105/104 comma. Alternatively meantone extends into grosstone by 144/143.
Can meantone and meanpop be combined into a single temperament? Yes! It works wonderfully and that temperament is 31edo. In 31edo the circle of fifths closes perfectly after 31 fifths, so Ex and Gbb are the same note. (In other words, the interval of the quadruply diminished third is tuned to 0 cents, if that makes any sense to you.) This makes everything much simpler and results in 121/120 and 243/242 being tempered out, so that 12/11~11/10 is a "neutral second" (exactly half of a minor third), and 11/9 is a "neutral third" (exactly half of a perfect fifth). Keep in mind that neither of these things are true in either meantone or meanpop.
JI interval | meantone mapping | meantone fifths | meanpop mapping | meanpop fifths |
---|---|---|---|---|
22/21 | Augmented prime (C-C#) | +7 | Triply diminished third (C-Ebbbb) | -24 |
12/11, 88/81 | Doubly diminished third (C-Ebbb) | -17 | Doubly augmented prime (C-Cx) | +14 |
11/10 | Doubly augmented prime (C-Cx) | +14 | Doubly diminished third (C-Ebbb) | -17 |
112/99 | Diminished third (C-Ebb), same as 8/7 | -10 | Triply augmented prime (C-C*) | +21 |
33/28 | augmented second (C-D#), same as 7/6 | +9 | Triply diminished fourth (C-Fbbb) | -22 |
40/33 | Doubly diminished fourth (C-Fbb) | -15 | Doubly augmented second (C-Dx) | +16 |
11/9, 27/22 | Doubly augmented second (C-Dx) | +16 | Doubly diminished fourth (C-Fbb) | -15 |
14/11 | Diminished fourth (C-Fb), same as 9/7 | -8 | Triply augmented second (C-D*) | +23 |
15/11 | Triply diminished sixth (C-Abbbb) | -25 | Augmented fourth (C-F#), same as 7/5 | +6 |
11/8 | Doubly augmented third (C-Ex) | +18 | Doubly diminished fifth (C-Gbb) | -13 |
16/11 | Doubly diminished sixth (C-Abbb) | -18 | Doubly augmented fourth (C-Fx) | +13 |
22/15 | Triply augmented third (C-E*) | +25 | Diminished fifth (C-Gb), same as 10/7 | -6 |
11/7 | Augmented fifth (C-G#), same as 14/9 | +8 | Triply diminished seventh (C-Bbbbb) | -23 |
18/11, 44/27 | Doubly diminished seventh (C-Bbbb) | -16 | Doubly augmented fifth (C-Gx) | +15 |
33/20 | Doubly augmented fifth (C-Gx) | +15 | Doubly diminished seventh (C-Bbbb) | -16 |
56/33 | diminished seventh (C-Bbb), same as 12/7 | -9 | Triply augmented fifth (C-G*) | +16 |
99/56 | Augmented sixth (C-A#), same as 7/4 | +10 | Triply diminished octave (C-Cbbb) | -21 |
20/11 | Doubly diminished octave (C-Cbb) | -14 | Doubly augmented sixth (C-Ax) | +17 |
11/6, 81/44 | Doubly augmented sixth (C-Ax) | +17 | Doubly diminished octave (C-Cbb) | -14 |
21/11 | Diminished octave (C-Cb) | -7 | Triply augmented sixth (C-A*) | +24 |
Contents
Tuning Spectra
Spectrum of Undecimal Meantone Tunings by Eigenmonzos
11-limit commas: 81/80, 99/98, 126/125
Eigenmonzo | Fifth |
---|---|
10/9 | 691.202 |
6/5 | 694.786 |
9/7 | 695.614 |
7/6 | 696.319 |
5/4 | 696.578 (5, 7, 9 limit minimax) |
11/9 | 696.713 (11 limit minimax) |
8/7 | 696.883 |
12/11 | 697.021 |
7/5 | 697.085 |
15/11 | 697.158 |
27/22 | 697.159 |
22/21 | 697.22 |
11/8 | 697.295 |
21/16 | 697.344 |
11/10 | 697.5 |
16/15 | 697.654 |
40/33 | 697.797 |
14/11 | 697.812 |
33/28 | 698.272 |
112/99 | 698.64 |
4/3 | 701.955 |
88/81 | 710.4335 |
Tridecimal meantone
13-limit commas: 66/65, 81/80, 99/98, 105/104
Eigenmonzo | Fifth |
---|---|
14/13 | 694.34 |
18/13 | 695.124 |
15/13 | 695.226 |
39/28 | 695.6095 |
13/12 | 695.612 |
13/10 | 695.838 |
39/32 | 696.405 |
16/13 | 697.467 |
33/26 | 703.186 |
13/11 | 703.597 |
Grosstone
13-limit commas: 81/80, 99/98, 126/125, 144/143
Eigenmonzo | Fifth |
---|---|
33/26 | 693.178 |
39/32 | 697.168 |
14/13 | 697.242 (13, 15 limit minimax) |
13/10 | 697.289 |
13/11 | 697.376 |
16/13 | 697.467 |
15/13 | 697.511 |
13/12 | 697.731 |
18/13 | 697.966 |
Meridetone
13-limit commas: 78/77, 81/80, 99/98, 126/125
Eigenmonzo | Fifth |
---|---|
18/13 | 697.465 (13, 15 limit minimax) |
13/12 | 697.637 |
16/13 | 697.797 |
15/13 | 697.83 |
39/32 | 697.946 |
13/10 | 698.009 |
14/13 | 698.335 |
33/26 | 698.407 |
13/11 | 698.801 |
Spectrum of Meanpop Tunings by Eigenmonzos
11-limit commas: 81/80, 126/125, 385/384
Eigenmonzo | Fifth |
---|---|
10/9 | 691.202 |
6/5 | 694.786 |
9/7 | 695.614 |
40/33 | 695.815 |
112/99 | 695.886 |
11/8 | 696.052 |
11/10 | 696.176 |
7/6 | 696.319 |
27/22 | 696.3635 |
14/11 | 696.413 |
12/11 | 696.474 |
5/4 | 696.578 (5, 7, 9, 11 limit minimax) |
11/9 | 696.839 |
8/7 | 696.883 |
7/5 | 697.085 |
4/3 | 701.955 |
22/21 | 703.356 |
88/81 | 707.946 |
Tridecimal meanpop
13-limit commas: 81/80, 105/104, 126/125, 144/143
Eigenmonzo | Fifth |
---|---|
14/13 | 694.34 |
18/13 | 695.124 |
15/13 | 695.226 |
39/28 | 695.6095 |
13/12 | 695.612 |
33/26 | 695.824 |
13/10 | 695.838 |
16/13 | 696.035 |
13/11 | 696.043 (13, 15 limit minimax) |
39/32 | 696.405 |
Meanplop
13-limit commas: 65/64, 78/77, 81/80, 91/90
Eigenmonzo | Fifth |
---|---|
39/32 | 685.839 |
16/13 | 689.868 |
13/12 | 692.285 |
13/10 | 693.223 |
18/13 | 693.897 |
15/13 | 694.193 |
14/13 | 694.878 |
33/26 | 698.407 |
39/28 | 698.5365 |
13/11 | 698.801 |