User talk:PiotrGrochowski: Difference between revisions

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: That's confusing; pages like [[306edo]] talking about 306c tempering out different commas not explaining what it is, etc. that confused me into thinking like this. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 05:24, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

:: That's ok, but can you please not keep making -a, -a-a, etc pages? They were temporary and part of a discussion on the Facebook group; they were always intended to be merged back into the original pages. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 23:40, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

== hard reditrect ==

Hi Piotr,

this was new to me :-) thanks. Maybe the sidebar should probable link to the help namespace. I'm not sure if moving help stuff into the help NS gets consensus in the FB group. Are you on FB meanwhile, if not: are you planning to create an account there?

Best --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 12:54, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

:See [[redirect]] for more information about redirects. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 12:58, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

:: I see. A small usability consideration: sometimes (well, not in the current case with the help page) it's good to see that a page is the result of a redirect, I don't consider redirects ''per se'' as bad. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 13:13, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

== Editor pages ==

These pages are an (in my opinion) outdated concept, introduces in the Wikispaces era, to compensate the lack of real user pages. [[User:Carl Lumma]] and [[User:Xenwolf|I (Xenwolf)]] were the only members that made use of it, so it seems that [[Editor PiotrGrochowski]] would better redirect to your user page again. If there will be a [[Help:User pages|help page about user pages]], the [[Editor yourName]] will most likely be transformed into a redirect to that help page. But: What do you think about this topic? Best --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 16:29, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

:Editor pages are for information about the user, user pages are for possible testing. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 19:14, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

::Editor pages should still be in the User namespace then. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] ([[User talk:Keenan Pepper|talk]]) 19:15, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

:::Wait, maybe I misunderstood what you're saying. If you're talking about an article about the person, because they're notable in the xenharmonic community (for example [[Harry Partch]] or something), then it should just be that person's name, without the word "Editor". —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] ([[User talk:Keenan Pepper|talk]]) 19:16, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

:::: I assume by User namespace you mean pages like [[User:PiotrGrochowski]] and NOT [[User:PiotrGrochowski/Ups and Downs Notation-a]]. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 19:18, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

:::::Both of those pages are in the User namespace. In fact, anything that begins with "User:" is. See https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Namespaces for more info about Mediawiki namespaces. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] ([[User talk:Keenan Pepper|talk]]) 19:22, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

:I agree with this. All drafts/sandboxes should be in the User namespace. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] ([[User talk:Keenan Pepper|talk]]) 19:12, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

:: Don't forget that there is an official [[SandBox]] page for every user to try out some wiki markup, or to discuss stuff with other users. '''@Piotr:''' the <code>Editor_</code> suffix was a surrogate for a real user namespace (Wikispaces had no namespaces). The user namespace is the user page and all subpages whereas - by convention - a users's subpages "belong" to the prefixing user (if not indicated otherwise). The talk pages are by default open to other users. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 19:29, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

== Status of [[Ups and Downs Notation]], and personal attacks in edit summaries ==

I'm going to restore [[Ups and Downs Notation]] back to the main namespace. I don't like to revert people's actions without a thorough explanation, so here goes: I moved articles like [[15edo-b]], [[Wikifuture-a]], etc. into user namespaces since I believed the '''intent''' of the people creating them was as drafts or sandboxes, and not permanent articles meant to live on the wiki indefinitely. These drafts should be stored in the User namespace since they're not meant as final, published articles, but instead eventually meant to replace (or be merged into) the main articles at [[15edo]], [[Wikifuture]]. Importantly, I believed the authors of these pages would likely not be angry that I moved them, because they can keep working on them with basically no interruption, and it aligns with what they want to do. (I can't be '''sure''' of that, but it was my sincere belief.)

Now, for [[Ups and Downs Notation]] the story seems quite different to me. I think it was on the old wiki for a while, and on this new wiki it's always been on the main namespace with no indication that it's any kind of draft or sandbox. Moving it to a user subpage might send the unfriendly message that that user's contributions are not welcome here, and they're going to be marginalized or outcast. Personal attacks like "K**e curse" in edit summaries certainly do nothing to help this, and I consider them uncivil.

Instead of doing things like this, I encourage you to edit articles directly. If you wanted to, I don't think it would be unwelcome to add a "Criticism" section or otherwise change the article to reflect that much of the content is not the consensus of all editors here. As long as we're civil to each other and have the common goal of improving articles, I think even people with widely differing opinions can work together to improve the wiki. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] ([[User talk:Keenan Pepper|talk]]) 17:26, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

== List style ==

Hi Piotr,

please don't try to push the <code><nowiki><ul><li></li></ul></nowiki></code> style into the wiki. The wiki idea is that you have to know few or - better - no markup for adding (or editing) content. This way it's really easy to see how the wiki text relates to the HTML output. You may even read the article without transforming it into HTML. Why do you prefer to embed HTML tags if it isn't necessary at all (MediaWiki transforms it into HTML automatically). Are you maybe using the visual editor? Best --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 20:31, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

: We just discussing the issue on Facebook, here I read - let me cite: '' "the proper, canonical syntax" on a wiki is wiki markup'' Jonathan Bright and ''One only breaks into HTML if there is no support for the markup, and lists are supported.'' Joe McMahon - all in all, there is not a single vote pro your preference. Please tell me what's your point. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 20:42, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

:I haven't ever used the visual editor on xen.wiki and I don't want to. I live my life without overcomplications of the [[list model]]. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 07:44, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

== I removed a partial addition ==

Hi Piotr,

you started adding a column in the page [[15edo-interval names]] which broke the table, that's why I removed it (I beg your understanding). Feel free to re-add a ''whole'' column, but for linking to background information (I'm talking about [[User:PiotrGrochowski/Extra-Diatonic Intervals|Extra-Diatonic Intervals]]), it would be better use a page in the main namespace (soon), so that also others feel invited to elaborate about your idea. Best --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 09:40, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

:Stop saying you're the best. It's annoying. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 06:51, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

== Pardon? ==

I'm a bit confused about [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=User_talk%3AXenwolf&type=revision&diff=34318&oldid=34317 your way] to ''explain'' things. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:53, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

:You said you intentionally left out the link, so you are hiding some secret. I deleted my section because I can't trust you like this. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 15:56, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

== Accidental reversion on Spanish Wiki ==

Hello Piotr, just wanted to let you know that while I was updating the discussion page format on the Spanish wiki, I screwed up and we had to revert to the last SQL backup. This has had the unfortunate effect of reverting two of your edits, which I think were under the name "Piotr's Sock Puppet" or something like that. My apologies! This was unintentional; you may need to re-add these. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 18:08, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

== Name Calling ==

Hello Piotr,

I wanted to address the name calling that you made on [[User_talk:TallKite]]'s page here: [[https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:TallKite&oldid=34094]]

This is not appropriate behavior for this wiki. Namecalling is not acceptable and is generally a bannable offense. I know there is a language barrier here, and I'm not sure if you understand the meaning of the word "creepy," but it is considered an insult in English. We are giving you some slack here as we would usually ban for this right away, because we know that English is your second language and you may not 100% understand the meaning of your words. However, please refrain from such language in the future. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 18:18, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

: Piotr, to add to this, I see you had cursed at Kite in the edit logs (K**e is so f*****g creepy). This is really unacceptable; we have temporarily blocked your account from editing the wiki for three days. You can still view the Wiki but not edit (except for this page). When the ban expires you can edit again. Please do not ever curse at users here; we want this to be a positive atmosphere for everyone. Thank you. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 18:37, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

== The Piotr Notation system ==

Hello Piotr,

I wanted to explain the situation with Kite's notation system. Simply put, he is writing a book on his theory, and we are documenting it on the Wiki. We want this to be a place to document everyone's ideas, whether they are yours or Kite's, as though this were an encyclopedia. No notation is perfect, but we think if we have everything here, composers will be able to decide which one they like best!

It looks like you have some good ideas for a notation system. I am very interested to understand more what they are. Unfortunately, the way things are set up now, it is difficult to see what the '''differences''' are between yours and Kite's system. This isn't your fault, but it's because the Wiki format does not make it easy to see the difference between two pages.

But we all see you are interested in this stuff and would like to encourage you to contribute. I thought one of the following two options would work best:

1. Perhaps you simply have some suggested additions to Kite's system. If this is the case, then rather than just copying Kite's page, why not make a page called "Piotr's suggested alterations to Kite's Ups and Downs Notation System", where the '''differences''' are clearly listed. That is, rather than copying Kite's page and just changing stuff, simply writing your thoughts about which things should be different, and why. This is just to make it easier for us to understand your ideas, because right now your page looks exactly the same as Kite's page, with some minor differences, and everyone has to search side by side to try to find what they are.

2. Or, if you are interested in notation systems, why not go all the way and make a Piotr notation system? Instead of saying it's "Piotr's version of Kite's system," why not simply develop your very own system that can be exactly the way you want, designed exactly the way you like it? Of course you can use Kite's ideas or page as a starting point, but if you have some good thoughts for a notation system, then I think you should feel free to make it '''your''' system, not just a variant of Kite's! It can go in whatever direction you like.

Believe me, nobody's system is perfect, not Kite's, not anyone's! But I am also interested in designing a notation system, and I would be happy to work with you on this, to the extent that I have time. I created an outline for a [[KISS notation system|KISS_notation]] many years ago, but the page needs work... [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 01:06, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

:What do you mean by the wiki setup? The differences are here: <s>https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Ups_and_Downs_Notation&type=revision&diff=34008&oldid=35895</s>https://en.xen.wiki/w/Special:ComparePages?page1=Ups+and+Downs+Notation&rev1=&page2=User%3APiotrGrochowski%2FUps+and+Downs+Notation-a&rev2=&action=&diffonly=&unhide=

:I made [[User:PiotrGrochowski/Ups and Downs Notation-a]] because in my opinion, just like the [[edo]]s, it's something that is a result of maths existing. It's neither Kite's, mine, yours or anyone else's. The difference is that all Kite's conventions are removed; scales now start with C and not D, augmented unison is included for 12edo, pentatonic scales removed, etc. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 14:46, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

:: Piotr - the thing is, as Kite continues to change his page, it will become difficult to see the differences between his page and yours. The link you gave above will only do a diff between the old version of his page and your current page. If you are not interested in making a new notation system, it would be helpful to make a page that emphasizes the difference between your sytem and his, so we can see what they are. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 07:32, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

:::Stop calling it my system when it isn't! Kite minus Kite is no one. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 15:45, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

::::Regardless, still, it would be helpful to make a page that emphasizes the differences between what you are proposing and what he is proposing. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 17:54, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

== A word about templates ==

Hello Piotr,

I understand your idea to include (some) templates into the [[:Category:Shortcuts]] but you are doing it wrong: if you place <code><nowiki>[[Category:Shortcuts]]</nowiki></code> into a template without surrounding it by <code><nowiki><noinclude></nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki></noinclude></nowiki></code>, you cause the including (or "transcluding") pages to be added to this category, what may be intended, but obviously not in this very case ([https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=SandBox&oldid=36275#List_model currently] [[SandBox]] is categorized as a [[:Category:Shortcuts|Shortcut]] but in fact it isn't). BTW [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Template%3AMonzo&type=revision&diff=36459&oldid=36458 I protected Template:Monzo] to help you concentrate on fixing the problems in [[Template:List]] fist.

Best regards --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 17:24, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

== broken ratios ==

Good to point on this! But I'd do it openly in your place. Maybe by typing "broken ratio!" behind the wrong numbers so that everyone can see the error. (If he/she is so smart as to understand that an 0-ending in numerator and denominator clearly indicates a rounding error). I woudn't hide the errors by commenting them out. Best --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 22:21, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

== Scratch programming ==

Hi Piotr,

you seem to be a [https://scratch.mit.edu/users/ihgfedcba/ Scratch programmer]. What are the prerequisites to run these programs? Is it possible from within modern Browsers? Doesn't is need a Flash Player?

BTW: Do you also program in other languages?

Best --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 22:01, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

:The projects run on Flash. It's possible to use Flash in Android using the Puffin Browser. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 05:09, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

:Also, the generator I was talking about in [[Talk:13-limit/WikispacesArchive]] was also made in Scratch, although it wasn't shared. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 05:10, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

== Your list modelling efforts ==

Hi Piotr,

MediaWiki has a built-in list feature that makes it easy to add and ''maintain'' lists (unordered, ordered, mixed) on wiki pages. This is for a purpose. If you are interested in doing it the hard way yourself, maybe invest your time into it. But stop ''wasting other people's time'' with it. If you wish to suggest technical improvements to the wiki community, try to discuss it first. If not on Facebook then here on talk pages or in separate project pages (in the [https://en.xen.wiki/w/Special:AllPages?from=&to=&namespace=4 project namespace]). You may as well be bold and introduce it into normal pages but be open to ''accept'' that the feedback may differ from you expectations. Don't push your ideas into the wiki by pretending they're common conventions. Believe me, there are lots of people here that are absolute familiar with HTML. Wikis were invented to ''avoid'' HTML wherever possible, I thought you knew about that. Please move your list model project into the project namespace. You may link to it from your user namespace at will. You may also link to it from talk pages if you explain why.

Best regards --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 06:43, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

:You are very biased towards that [[list model]]. The [[Conventions]] are not biased towards any particular [[list model]]. What you're describing is <code>wikispaces</code>, which is closing for a reason. Not to mention it's a pain to get newlines in many environments. Please stop being biased. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 06:51, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

== last warning ==

Immediately repair the damage you have done since your blocking ended. In an ''acceptable'' way. No kidding. You have one hour. If you don't, you will be '''blocked for one week''' - the deadline is '''10:35 local time (CEST)''' --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 07:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

:I did not do any damage. It's already repaired. You will not ban me. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 08:19, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

:: I see '''only one constructive edit''' in [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?limit=50&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=PiotrGrochowski&namespace=&tagfilter=&start=2018-10-16&end=2018-10-16 these] You are still promoting forcefully (without any regard) your pointless [[list model]]. You have '''6 minutes left.'''. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 08:29, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

::: What? All of these are constructive, no [[list model]] is pointless and you are the one promoting a specific list model. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 08:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

You have been [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=Xenwolf&page=User%3APiotrGrochowski&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&subtype= blocked for one <s>month</s> week] to carefully study what's been going on in the last ≈90 minutes. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 08:47, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

== Thanks for contributing again ==

Hello Piotr,

I ask you to do a critical review of what you are calling "[[list model]]". There will be very few people that will call it like this. And, much more important, MediaWiki will export '''valid HTML''' lists for the simplified wiki markup (<code>#</code>, <code>*</code> and <code>;</code>+<code>:</code>) as well as for list built via HTML markup, the same is true for your templates, but not for the other "options". Please have a look on the resulting HTML delivered by MediaWiki, I mean: check the delivered HTML source code (for example Ctrl+U for Firefox under Windows).

Thanks in advance!

--[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:10, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

:The [[list models]] need not have the same HTML output. Plaintext lists are named so because the output is plaintext, so it can be copied anywhere, including personal notes in Notepad or in the <nowiki><pre></pre></nowiki> safety zone. Defined lists intentionally override the MediaWiki list styling for a defined one. All of these are valid HTML. Do you see any HTML errors in your browser's debugger in [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=SandBox&oldid=37569#List_model SandBox#List model]? [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 17:39, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

=== Why on earth are you insisting to re-invent the wheel?? ===

The wiki source code ''is meant'' to be the ideal fall-back version. That's why it's a bad idea to overcomplicate it. In MediaWiki it's easy to get access to the source code, even if in read-only mode (BTW: did you know [https://en.xen.wiki/w/Chroma?action=raw <code>?action=raw</code>]). Do you really believe that someone is interested in adding unreadable number pictures and hard-coded line breaks, if styling is normally based on CSS these times? Here is what W3Cschools have to say about [https://www.w3schools.com/html/html_lists.asp HTML Lists]. Please consider to further clarify your intention with the help of some sensible reference. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 18:08, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

:Not everything has to go along your or W3C's opinions. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 09:05, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

== Serious warning ==

You are obviously unable to present your intention in a polite and understandable manner. I assume that your intrusive changes will result in you being permanently put into read-only mode in the near future. I very much regret that you have such difficulties with self-criticism. It is still open how long your writing pause will last. I know from some dedicated Xenwiki users that they plead for a permanent ban and resent me for not having you permanently blocked already. Do me (and you!) a favor and undo your last changes.

--[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 13:06, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

@@ Line 72: / Line 72: @@
 : That's confusing; pages like [[306edo]] talking about 306c tempering out different commas not explaining what it is, etc. that confused me into thinking like this. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 05:24, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
 :: That's ok, but can you please not keep making -a, -a-a, etc pages? They were temporary and part of a discussion on the Facebook group; they were always intended to be merged back into the original pages. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 23:40, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
+== hard reditrect ==
+Hi Piotr, <br/>
+this was new to me :-) thanks. Maybe the sidebar should probable link to the help namespace. I'm not sure if moving help stuff into the help NS gets consensus in the FB group. Are you on FB meanwhile, if not: are you planning to create an account there? <br/>
+Best --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 12:54, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+:See [[redirect]] for more information about redirects. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 12:58, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+:: I see. A small usability consideration: sometimes (well, not in the current case with the help page) it's good to see that a page is the result of a redirect, I don't consider redirects ''per se'' as bad. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 13:13, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+== Editor pages ==
+These pages are an (in my opinion) outdated concept, introduces in the Wikispaces era, to compensate the lack of real user pages. [[User:Carl Lumma]] and [[User:Xenwolf|I (Xenwolf)]] were the only members that made use of it, so it seems that [[Editor PiotrGrochowski]] would better redirect to your user page again. If there will be a [[Help:User pages|help page about user pages]], the [[Editor yourName]] will most likely be transformed into a redirect to that help page. But: What do you think about this topic? Best --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 16:29, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+:Editor pages are for information about the user, user pages are for possible testing. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 19:14, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+::Editor pages should still be in the User namespace then. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] ([[User talk:Keenan Pepper|talk]]) 19:15, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+:::Wait, maybe I misunderstood what you're saying. If you're talking about an article about the person, because they're notable in the xenharmonic community (for example [[Harry Partch]] or something), then it should just be that person's name, without the word "Editor". —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] ([[User talk:Keenan Pepper|talk]]) 19:16, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+:::: I assume by User namespace you mean pages like [[User:PiotrGrochowski]] and NOT [[User:PiotrGrochowski/Ups and Downs Notation-a]]. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 19:18, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+:::::Both of those pages are in the User namespace. In fact, anything that begins with "User:" is. See https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Namespaces for more info about Mediawiki namespaces. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] ([[User talk:Keenan Pepper|talk]]) 19:22, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+:I agree with this. All drafts/sandboxes should be in the User namespace. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] ([[User talk:Keenan Pepper|talk]]) 19:12, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+:: Don't forget that there is an official [[SandBox]] page for every user to try out some wiki markup, or to discuss stuff with other users. '''@Piotr:''' the <code>Editor_</code> suffix was a surrogate for a real user namespace (Wikispaces had no namespaces). The user namespace is the user page and all subpages whereas - by convention - a users's subpages "belong" to the prefixing user (if not indicated otherwise). The talk pages are by default open to other users. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 19:29, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+== Status of [[Ups and Downs Notation]], and personal attacks in edit summaries ==
+I'm going to restore [[Ups and Downs Notation]] back to the main namespace. I don't like to revert people's actions without a thorough explanation, so here goes: I moved articles like [[15edo-b]], [[Wikifuture-a]], etc. into user namespaces since I believed the '''intent''' of the people creating them was as drafts or sandboxes, and not permanent articles meant to live on the wiki indefinitely. These drafts should be stored in the User namespace since they're not meant as final, published articles, but instead eventually meant to replace (or be merged into) the main articles at [[15edo]], [[Wikifuture]]. Importantly, I believed the authors of these pages would likely not be angry that I moved them, because they can keep working on them with basically no interruption, and it aligns with what they want to do. (I can't be '''sure''' of that, but it was my sincere belief.)
+Now, for [[Ups and Downs Notation]] the story seems quite different to me. I think it was on the old wiki for a while, and on this new wiki it's always been on the main namespace with no indication that it's any kind of draft or sandbox. Moving it to a user subpage might send the unfriendly message that that user's contributions are not welcome here, and they're going to be marginalized or outcast. Personal attacks like "K**e curse" in edit summaries certainly do nothing to help this, and I consider them uncivil.
+Instead of doing things like this, I encourage you to edit articles directly. If you wanted to, I don't think it would be unwelcome to add a "Criticism" section or otherwise change the article to reflect that much of the content is not the consensus of all editors here. As long as we're civil to each other and have the common goal of improving articles, I think even people with widely differing opinions can work together to improve the wiki. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] ([[User talk:Keenan Pepper|talk]]) 17:26, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+== List style ==
+Hi Piotr, <br/>
+please don't try to push the <code><nowiki><ul><li></li></ul></nowiki></code> style into the wiki. The wiki idea is that you have to know few or - better - no markup for adding (or editing) content. This way it's really easy to see how the wiki text relates to the HTML output. You may even read the article without transforming it into HTML. Why do you prefer to embed HTML tags if it isn't necessary at all (MediaWiki transforms it into HTML automatically). Are you maybe using the visual editor? <br/> Best --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 20:31, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+: We just discussing the issue on Facebook, here I read - let me cite: '' "the proper, canonical syntax" on a wiki is wiki markup''<sup> Jonathan Bright</sup> and ''One only breaks into HTML if there is no support for the markup, and lists are supported.''<sup> Joe McMahon</sup> - all in all, there is not a single vote pro your preference. Please tell me what's your point. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 20:42, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
+:I haven't ever used the visual editor on xen.wiki and I don't want to. I live my life without overcomplications of the [[list model]]. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 07:44, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
+== I removed a partial addition ==
+Hi Piotr, <br/>
+you started adding a column in the page [[15edo-interval names]] which broke the table, that's why I removed it (I beg your understanding). Feel free to re-add a ''whole'' column, but for linking to background information (I'm talking about [[User:PiotrGrochowski/Extra-Diatonic Intervals|Extra-Diatonic Intervals]]), it would be better use a page in the main namespace (soon), so that also others feel invited to elaborate about your idea. <br/> Best --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 09:40, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
+:Stop saying you're the best. It's annoying. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 06:51, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
+== Pardon? ==
+I'm a bit confused about [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=User_talk%3AXenwolf&type=revision&diff=34318&oldid=34317 your way] to ''explain'' things. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:53, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
+:You said you intentionally left out the link, so you are hiding some secret. I deleted my section because I can't trust you like this. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 15:56, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
+== Accidental reversion on Spanish Wiki ==
+Hello Piotr, just wanted to let you know that while I was updating the discussion page format on the Spanish wiki, I screwed up and we had to revert to the last SQL backup. This has had the unfortunate effect of reverting two of your edits, which I think were under the name "Piotr's Sock Puppet" or something like that. My apologies! This was unintentional; you may need to re-add these. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 18:08, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
+== Name Calling ==
+Hello Piotr,
+I wanted to address the name calling that you made on [[User_talk:TallKite]]'s page here: [[https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:TallKite&oldid=34094]]
+This is not appropriate behavior for this wiki. Namecalling is not acceptable and is generally a bannable offense. I know there is a language barrier here, and I'm not sure if you understand the meaning of the word "creepy," but it is considered an insult in English. We are giving you some slack here as we would usually ban for this right away, because we know that English is your second language and you may not 100% understand the meaning of your words. However, please refrain from such language in the future. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 18:18, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
+: Piotr, to add to this, I see you had cursed at Kite in the edit logs (K**e is so f*****g creepy). This is really unacceptable; we have temporarily blocked your account from editing the wiki for three days. You can still view the Wiki but not edit (except for this page). When the ban expires you can edit again. Please do not ever curse at users here; we want this to be a positive atmosphere for everyone. Thank you. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 18:37, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
+== The Piotr Notation system ==
+Hello Piotr,
+I wanted to explain the situation with Kite's notation system. Simply put, he is writing a book on his theory, and we are documenting it on the Wiki. We want this to be a place to document everyone's ideas, whether they are yours or Kite's, as though this were an encyclopedia. No notation is perfect, but we think if we have everything here, composers will be able to decide which one they like best!
+It looks like you have some good ideas for a notation system. I am very interested to understand more what they are. Unfortunately, the way things are set up now, it is difficult to see what the '''differences''' are between yours and Kite's system. This isn't your fault, but it's because the Wiki format does not make it easy to see the difference between two pages.
+But we all see you are interested in this stuff and would like to encourage you to contribute. I thought one of the following two options would work best:
+. Perhaps you simply have some suggested additions to Kite's system. If this is the case, then rather than just copying Kite's page, why not make a page called "Piotr's suggested alterations to Kite's Ups and Downs Notation System", where the '''differences''' are clearly listed. That is, rather than copying Kite's page and just changing stuff, simply writing your thoughts about which things should be different, and why. This is just to make it easier for us to understand your ideas, because right now your page looks exactly the same as Kite's page, with some minor differences, and everyone has to search side by side to try to find what they are.
+. Or, if you are interested in notation systems, why not go all the way and make a Piotr notation system? Instead of saying it's "Piotr's version of Kite's system," why not simply develop your very own system that can be exactly the way you want, designed exactly the way you like it? Of course you can use Kite's ideas or page as a starting point, but if you have some good thoughts for a notation system, then I think you should feel free to make it '''your''' system, not just a variant of Kite's! It can go in whatever direction you like.
+Believe me, nobody's system is perfect, not Kite's, not anyone's! But I am also interested in designing a notation system, and I would be happy to work with you on this, to the extent that I have time. I created an outline for a [[KISS notation system|KISS_notation]] many years ago, but the page needs work... [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 01:06, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
+:What do you mean by the wiki setup? The differences are here: <s>https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Ups_and_Downs_Notation&type=revision&diff=34008&oldid=35895</s>https://en.xen.wiki/w/Special:ComparePages?page1=Ups+and+Downs+Notation&rev1=&page2=User%3APiotrGrochowski%2FUps+and+Downs+Notation-a&rev2=&action=&diffonly=&unhide=
+:I made [[User:PiotrGrochowski/Ups and Downs Notation-a]] because in my opinion, just like the [[edo]]s, it's something that is a result of maths existing. It's neither Kite's, mine, yours or anyone else's. The difference is that all Kite's conventions are removed; scales now start with C and not D, augmented unison is included for 12edo, pentatonic scales removed, etc. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 14:46, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
+:: Piotr - the thing is, as Kite continues to change his page, it will become difficult to see the differences between his page and yours. The link you gave above will only do a diff between the old version of his page and your current page. If you are not interested in making a new notation system, it would be helpful to make a page that emphasizes the difference between your sytem and his, so we can see what they are. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 07:32, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
+:::Stop calling it my system when it isn't! Kite minus Kite is no one. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 15:45, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
+::::Regardless, still, it would be helpful to make a page that emphasizes the differences between what you are proposing and what he is proposing. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 17:54, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
+== A word about templates ==
+Hello Piotr, <br/>
+I understand your idea to include (some) templates into the [[:Category:Shortcuts]] but you are doing it wrong: if you place <code><nowiki>[[Category:Shortcuts]]</nowiki></code> into a template without surrounding it by <code><nowiki><noinclude></nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki></noinclude></nowiki></code>, you cause the including (or "transcluding") pages to be added to this category, what may be intended, but obviously not in this very case ([https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=SandBox&oldid=36275#List_model currently] [[SandBox]] is categorized as a [[:Category:Shortcuts|Shortcut]] but in fact it isn't). BTW [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Template%3AMonzo&type=revision&diff=36459&oldid=36458 I protected Template:Monzo] to help you concentrate on fixing the problems in [[Template:List]] fist. <br/>
+Best regards --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 17:24, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
+== broken ratios ==
+Good to point on this! But I'd do it openly in your place. Maybe by typing "broken ratio!" behind the wrong numbers so that everyone can see the error. (If he/she is so smart as to understand that an 0-ending in numerator and denominator clearly indicates a rounding error). I woudn't hide the errors by commenting them out. Best --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 22:21, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
+== Scratch programming ==
+Hi Piotr, <br/>
+you seem to be a [https://scratch.mit.edu/users/ihgfedcba/ Scratch programmer]. What are the prerequisites to run these programs? Is it possible from within modern Browsers? Doesn't is need a Flash Player? <br/>
+BTW: Do you also program in other languages? <br/>
+Best --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 22:01, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
+:The projects run on Flash. It's possible to use Flash in Android using the Puffin Browser. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 05:09, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
+:Also, the generator I was talking about in [[Talk:13-limit/WikispacesArchive]] was also made in Scratch, although it wasn't shared. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 05:10, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
+== Your list modelling efforts ==
+Hi Piotr, <br/>
+MediaWiki has a built-in list feature that makes it easy to add and ''maintain'' lists (unordered, ordered, mixed) on wiki pages. This is for a purpose. If you are interested in doing it the hard way yourself, maybe invest your time into it. But stop ''wasting other people's time'' with it. If you wish to suggest technical improvements to the wiki community, try to discuss it first. If not on Facebook then here on talk pages or in separate project pages (in the [https://en.xen.wiki/w/Special:AllPages?from=&to=&namespace=4 project namespace]). You may as well be bold and introduce it into normal pages but be open to ''accept'' that the feedback may differ from you expectations. Don't push your ideas into the wiki by pretending they're common conventions. Believe me, there are lots of people here that are absolute familiar with HTML. Wikis were invented to ''avoid'' HTML wherever  possible, I thought you knew about that. Please move your list model project into the project namespace. You may link to it from your user namespace at will. You may also link to it from talk pages if you explain why. <br/>
+Best regards --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 06:43, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
+:You are very biased towards that [[list model]]. The [[Conventions]] are not biased towards any particular [[list model]]. What you're describing is <code>wikispaces</code>, which is closing for a reason. Not to mention it's a pain to get newlines in many environments. Please stop being biased. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 06:51, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
+== last warning ==
+Immediately repair the damage you have done since your blocking ended. In an ''acceptable'' way. No kidding. You have one hour. If you don't, you will be '''blocked for one week''' - the deadline is '''10:35 local time (CEST)''' --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 07:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
+:I did not do any damage. It's already repaired. You will not ban me. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 08:19, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
+:: I see '''only one constructive edit''' in [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?limit=50&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=PiotrGrochowski&namespace=&tagfilter=&start=2018-10-16&end=2018-10-16 these] You are still promoting forcefully (without any regard) your pointless [[list model]]. You have '''6 minutes left.'''. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 08:29, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
+::: What? All of these are constructive, no [[list model]] is pointless and you are the one promoting a specific list model. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 08:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
+You have been [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=Xenwolf&page=User%3APiotrGrochowski&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&subtype= blocked for one <s>month</s> <u>week</u>] to carefully study what's been going on in the last ≈90 minutes. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 08:47, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
+== Thanks for contributing again ==
+Hello Piotr,<br/>
+I ask you to do a critical review of what you are calling "[[list model]]". There will be very few people that will call it like this. And, much more important, MediaWiki will export '''valid HTML''' lists for the simplified wiki markup (<code>#</code>, <code>*</code> and <code>;</code>+<code>:</code>) as well as for list built via HTML markup, the same is true for your templates, but not for the other "options". Please have a look on the resulting HTML delivered by MediaWiki, I mean: check the delivered HTML source code (for example Ctrl+U for Firefox under Windows). <br/>
+Thanks in advance! <br/>
+--[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:10, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
+:The [[list models]] need not have the same HTML output. Plaintext lists are named so because the output is plaintext, so it can be copied anywhere, including personal notes in Notepad or in the <nowiki><pre></pre></nowiki> safety zone. Defined lists intentionally override the MediaWiki list styling for a defined one. All of these are valid HTML. Do you see any HTML errors in your browser's debugger in [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=SandBox&oldid=37569#List_model SandBox#List model]? [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 17:39, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
+=== Why on earth are you insisting to re-invent the wheel?? ===
+The wiki source code ''is meant'' to be the ideal fall-back version. That's why it's a bad idea to overcomplicate it. In MediaWiki it's easy to get access to the source code, even if in read-only mode (BTW: did you know [https://en.xen.wiki/w/Chroma?action=raw <code>?action=raw</code>]). Do you really believe that someone is interested in adding unreadable number pictures and hard-coded line breaks, if styling is normally based on CSS these times? Here is what W3Cschools have to say about [https://www.w3schools.com/html/html_lists.asp HTML Lists]. Please consider to further clarify your intention with the help of some sensible reference. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 18:08, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
+:Not everything has to go along your or W3C's opinions. [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[Editor PiotrGrochowski|info]], [[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/PiotrGrochowski|contribs]]) 09:05, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
+== Serious warning ==
+You are obviously unable to present your intention in a polite and understandable manner. I assume that your intrusive changes will result in you being permanently put into read-only mode in the near future. I very much regret that you have such difficulties with self-criticism. It is still open how long your writing pause will last. I know from some dedicated Xenwiki users that they plead for a permanent ban and resent me for not having you permanently blocked already. Do me (and you!) a favor and undo your last changes.
+--[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 13:06, 24 October 2018 (UTC)