Xenharmonic Wiki:Things to do

Hello there! This page is a place for various projects and minute things to do on this wiki. Please be welcome to help with any of them you like!

If you think something essential was forgotten and should be here, don’t be shy to add a new section here! If you don’t know if a project would be interesting to others, write at the talk page and let’s decide it together.

When the technical help is needed, please aid volunteers with a tool or two for being sure the details are easy to make right. For example, a template, a converter etc..

See also Conventions, Wikifuture, Migration FAQ as well as Category:Todo and its subcategories.

Details to fill out in articles

• Interval pages like 3/2
  • <Please write what may still be desired>

• <Other kinds of pages>

Archiving outdated discussions

Discussion pages tend to become confusing over time. The sections at the beginning are often long since finished. This tendency is easy to observe, but hardly anyone knows how to archive outdated articles.

We probably need some templates to support archiving. Moving old sections to subpage(s) is not as hard, but a bit of automatic decoration/guidance/navigation would help people to do this.

Automated archiving would be nice, but not essential in the first place.

Infobox for EDO pages

In EDO pages (see for example 23edo, 74edo, 167edo), core information is currently still given in prose, which makes it difficult to get this information together. Adding another infobox template would help to present and manage the formal information.

At the moment, we tend to include of these core characteristics

• step count
• step size
• patent val

Join our discussion: Xenharmonic Wiki talk:Things to do #Infobox for EDO pages

Categories of interval pages

There are lots of interval pages in the wiki, for example 3/2, 8/7, 25/24, 11/8... We developed an info box that brings the core features together. Still open is the question which category name would fit best for all of them. We currently observe a seemingly random mix of

• Category:Interval
• Category:Ratio
• Category:Interval ratio
• Category:Just interval

At present, it appears that we will replace most of them with Category:Rational interval" in the future.

Please join our discussion in Xenharmonic Wiki talk:Things to do #Relations of various interval categories! Thanks 🙂

Proposal: Shorten editing titles

When using tabbed browsing, long identical prefixes (like Editing ) in titles make it hard to differentiate tabs of wiki pages currently being edited.

system message	predefined text	suggested text
MediaWiki:Editingcomment	Editing $1 (new section)	✎ $1 (new section)
MediaWiki:Editing	Editing $1	✎ $1
MediaWiki:Editingsection	Editing $1 (section)	✎ $1 (section)

What do you think about the proposed change?

Join the discussion at Xenharmonic Wiki talk:Things to do #Shorten editing titles

Get rid of "alternative pages"

There are some pages that were mostly started out of frustration of on particular user not any more active in this wiki. The problem with diverging pages about the same topic is that linking to it tends to break or at least dissipate the consistency of the entire wiki. As normally would be the case with pages targeting the same topic but created by chance, the content should be merged into the (mostly obvious) main page. If there is noting valuable on it, the pages should be deleted. The pages are currently in the Category:Alternative pages. For discussing deletion etc, we should refrain from doing that on the respective discussion pages, because deletion will remove these as well. We'd better open an own page for discussion deletion.

I took a look at these. The edo pages are a relic of a discussion on facebook about the proper format for edo pages. Sort of useful. I suggest deleting all but the 15edo-a page and Gareth's page. The 94-edo page might have some good stuff, but since it's 94edo and 15edo jumbled together, it's also really confusing. This is what I suggest, but I don't feel I have the authority to actually delete someone's page. --TallKite (talk) 03:05, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Place to discuss deletion requests

Sometimes it's not easy to decide if a page should be deleted or not, it has to be discussed first. The problem with discussing deletion requests on the discussion page of the page being questioned is that they both have the same future. If the deletion happens, normal users have no access to the reasoning any more. Most wikis use an extra page for this purpose.

The so-called project namespace (in this wiki it's indicated by the prefix Xenharmonic Wiki:) is dedicated to that purpose, see pages currently in the project namespace.

Disambiguation project

There is a project Xenharmonix Wiki:Disambiguation that aims to build the tools we need. Please join the work and discuss related issues.

Naming articles

To reflect our current efforts, a #Naming articles section should be added to Xenharmonic Wiki:Conventions. Please review, rework, and/or discuss following draft:

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Wiki pages should follow the usual English capitalization rules, except for the very first character, which is automatically capitalized by the wiki software. This means that words inside the title are written in lower case, except for proper names.

Currently, there is still a mixture of styles that has historical reasons: In the beginning, titles were started in WikiCase because the Wikispaces software used at that time automatically linked such words. Later, the configuration was adjusted so that links were only created if this was specified by appropriate markup. Here, the titles started to look like titles, but to a large extent also with the usual capitalization of all meaningful words for titles (book titles). Then came the switch to MediaWiki with new features that were only slowly adapted (redirects, categories, etc.). Meanwhile, we have moved on to making full use of the wiki software's support. Thus a) pages are always linked regardless of the upper and lower case of the first character (e.g. [[Cent]] == [[cent]] → Cent == cent) and b) characters that are appended after the link markup are included in the link label (e.g. [[cent]]s == [[cent|cents]] → cents == cents). This way, links can usually be embedded in the text without much effort.

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13-Limit,17-Limit and 19-Limit Comma Pages

Hey, I was thinking we ought to start reorganizing the 11-limit and 13-limit temperaments, as well as figuring out how to deal with 17-limit temperaments, so far, just leaning on the preview that Flora provided me in a brief discussion on this matter, I'm thinking it should go something like this:

If X is a 3-limit or 5-limit comma, 
"X family" is for rank-2 temperaments that temper it out.
If X is a 7-limit comma, 
"X family" is for rank-3 temperaments that temper it out, and "X temperaments" is for rank-2 temperaments that temper it out ("X clan" if the comma is a subgroup comma). See: Marvel family, Marvel temperaments.
If X is an 11-limit comma, 
"X family" is for rank-4 temperaments that temper it out, and "X temperaments" is for rank-3 temperaments that temper it out ("X clan" if the comma is a subgroup comma). If the "X family" page isn't there (as it doesn't have many 13-limit branches), in "X temperaments" there is a brief of the rank-4 temperaments. See: Keenanismic family, Valinorsmic temperaments, Kalismic temperaments.  We need to figure out how to handle pages like Quartismic family.
If X is an 13-limit comma, 
"X family" is for rank-5 temperaments that temper it out, and "X temperaments" is for rank-4 temperaments that temper it out ("X clan" if the comma is a subgroup comma). If the "X family" page isn't there (as it doesn't have many 17-limit branches), in "X temperaments" there is a brief of the rank-5 temperaments.  We need to figure out how to handle pages like the Archipelago, the Biosphere and Marveltwin, which list temperaments of various ranks, as such pages will likely be more common going forward.
If X is a 17-limit comma,
"X family" is for rank 6-temperaments that temper it out, and "X temperaments" is for rank-5 temperaments that temper it out ("X clan" if the comma is a subgroup comma). If the "X family" page isn't there (as it doesn't have many 19-limit branches), in "X temperaments" there is a brief of the rank-6 temperaments.
If X is a 19-limit comma,
"X family" is for rank 7-temperaments that temper it out, and "X temperaments" is for rank-6 temperaments that temper it out ("X clan" if the comma is a subgroup comma). If the "X family" page isn't there, in "X temperaments" there is a brief of the rank-7 temperaments.

I hope this idea is at least the start of something feasible. The reason I'm stopping with the 19-limit is because aside from 94edo, none of the EDOs between 1edo and 171edo deal with the 23-limit consistently- at least to my knowledge. --Aura (talk) 17:08, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm hoping for further discussion on how to deal with pages listing temperaments of various ranks that are all connected by the tempering if a single comma, such as the Archipelago, and even the Quartismic family page. Is it possible that these could be analyzed as types of "X family" or "X clan" pages depending on the nature of the comma? From the looks of things, how we handle the page on the Biosphere page in particular will determine how we handle the the current "Quartismic family" page going forward as there seem to be a lot of structural parallels. --Aura (talk) 17:46, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

[ Start of suggestion/reply by Godtone (talk) 23:06, 15 January 2021 (UTC). ]
Re: the convention you are proposing, I do not think this is a good way to go about it. Superfamilies of temperaments formed by tempering only a single comma should be described on the page for that comma. Temperaments should get their own page separate from commas only if they temper at least 2 commas, but in higher-rank situations, that restriction should be 3 commas. High-rank temperaments tempering 2 or 3 commas should be listed on the page for a certain comma, with the page for that comma being the ultimate "super-family" of those temperaments. This could be justified further by that the temperaments listed for comma X should be ones which prioritise accuracy/idealness of tempering X, and that only temperaments involving at most 3 commas (including X) should be listed, but usually only listing X and 1 other comma. I also think that temperaments should be named based on increasing rank rather than decreasing rank, as it seems unlikely to me (from the perspective of practicality as opposed to theory, and due to various reasons) that someone would want to use (for example) a rank-5 or rank-6 temperament without tempering out any further commas, except as an exercise in exploring the temperings of specific commas or pairs of commas (hence the moving of that information to the main comma being tempered along with 1 or maybe 2 others). On the contrary, there is lots of motivation for using a rank 2 or 3 temperament. I think higher ranks usually serve to contextualise or conceptualise lower ranks, rather than vice versa, hence the lowest ranks should be the "centre of focus" for the most part, except when focusing on specific commas.

Another reason to avoid "single-comma superfamilies" on separate pages is it reduces redundancy/repeated information and it reduces the chaos caused by the fact that reasonably complex temperaments are defined by multiple commas, thus meaning that the position of a comma in a hierarchy of 'super-families' is generally not a necessarily well-defined concept, leading to a mess.

"Temperaments" should therefore refer to rank 2 temperaments, and also rank 3 if the term is interpreted to include "planar temperaments". "Temperament families" should thus be rank 3, and "temperament superfamilies" should be rank 4. (Note that whether a rank 3 temperament is called a "planar temperament" or a "temperament family" should depend on its use in a discussion. If it is being considered as defining a "plane" of tones to choose from, generated by 2 generators with respect to some period, then it is a "planar temperament", but if it is being considered as a larger family uniting multiple rank 2 temperaments (and thus also rank 1 temperaments), it is a "temperament family".)

With that said, here is my alternate proposal which I think would make things less chaotic if applied consistently and broadly. (Note that this is for higher limits/more complex cases, so as the 5- and 7-prime-limits are relatively trivial cases, I will skip past naming them and more generally all temperaments derived from a 3 or 4 dimensional untempered subgroup.)

First, assume that we are dealing with an initial untempered subgroup of at least rank 5. (Lower ranks I'm not too concerned about how they're organised as they're generally pretty simple in comparison.) I'll call this initial untempered subgroup "IUS" for short.
Tempering 1 comma leads to a comma-specific temperament, described on the page for the comma.
If the IUS is rank 5, tempering 2 commas leads to a family or clan and tempering 3 leads to a temperament.
If the IUS is rank 6, tempering 2 commas leads to a superfamily, tempering 3 leads to a family or clan and tempering 4 leads to a temperament.
More generally, if the IUS is tempered from rank n to rank k < n through tempering (n - k) commas, then:
If the tempered result is rank 1, it is an equal temperament.
If the tempered result is rank 2, it is just a temperament.
If it is rank 3, it is a clan or family, alternatively named a planar temperament if using or considering it with no further tempering is desired.
If it is rank 4, it is a superfamily.
If it is rank 5, my proposed name is that it is an ultrafamily.

Meanwhile, for comma pages, the comma should be described in terms of its arithmetic and musical significance and in terms of the temperaments resulting from tempering it and up to 2 other commas, but generally prioritising the tuning of the comma in question, and providing a spectrum of possible tunings for that comma while showing ranges of possible tunings for other commas to temper with that comma, giving reasons as to why you might want to do so. Furthermore, if the tempering of this comma with 2 other commas results in a temperament of rank 6 or greater, I think the 3 comma combination - if considered significant - should get its own page corresponding to a type of family that I propose to be called a "metafamily". The existence of this "metafamily" should be mentioned on the page for all 3 commas, but no further information should be given (to avoid repetition of information on the page for the metafamily). In the case of tempering 2 commas resulting in rank 6 or greater, the temperament can easily just be named as the combination of the names of the commas, hence it should in that case ''definitely'' be part of the page for the comma(s) in question.

If we follow all of these rules, we have a very broad system for dealing with higher rank situations, as:
Temperaments of ranks 1 through 5 are given consistent names. (1 through 5 are covered.)
Tempering 1 comma is always associated with that comma. Adding only 1 more comma does not change this if the temperament is rank 6 or greater. (+2 ranks covered.)
In the extreme case where tempering 3 commas results in a temperament of interest that is rank 6 or greater, this is named a "metafamily", and there can be described derived temperaments of lower ranks. (+2 ranks covered.)
This takes us to a complete classification of up to as high as rank 9 temperaments (implying up to a rank 10 IUS, taking us to the 29-prime-limit), and I think this is a very reasonable place to draw a limit.

For aiding understanding of what I've stated so far, I'll provide a couple of examples of how the resulting ranks of temperaments would be classified for a couple of different rank IUS's. Rank 9 and lower temperaments would be classified in the following hierarchy (assuming an implied rank 10 IUS):
Rank 1 - Equal temperament.
Rank 2 - Temperament.
Rank 3 - Planar temperament. (Alternatively clan or family.)
Rank 4 - Superfamily AKA "[Ultrafamily] temperaments".
Rank 5 - Ultrafamily.
Rank 6 - Metafamily temperaments. Named as "[Metafamily name] + [comma name] temperaments". As a collective, derived temperaments of a Metafamily are named "[Metafamily name] temperaments".
Rank 7 - Metafamily.
Rank 8 - 2 comma temperament, derived from a 'main' comma. Named as "[main comma name] + [secondary comma name] temperament".
Rank 9 - 1 comma temperament. Named as just "the [comma name] temperament".
Rank 10 - the IUS (initial untempered subgroup).

If we assume a rank 8 IUS (corresponding to the 19-prime-limit) then the hierarchy looks almost the same except for rank 4 and onwards:
Rank 4 - Superfamily AKA an instance of a "[Metafamily] temperament".
Rank 5 - Ultrafamily or Metafamily. Which term is preferred depends on if you are looking at it from the perspective of a large (Ultra)family of low rank temperaments or from the perspective of a unique combination of 3 commas being tempered out of the full IUS (thus defining a Metafamily of temperaments).
Rank 6 - 2 comma temperament, derived from a 'main' comma. Named as "[main comma name] + [secondary comma name] temperament".
Rank 7 - 1 comma temperament. Named as just "the [comma name] temperament".
Rank 8 - the IUS (initial untempered subgroup).

Note: A partial reason I chose "Metafamilies" to correspond to 3 commas (and thus "Metafamily temperaments" to 4) is to suggest focusing on tempering at least 3 or 4 commas in high rank situations so that we don't just get a whole bunch of 1 or 2 comma temperaments which are comparatively uninteresting and of which, at that scale, there will inevitably be (perhaps far too) many. This also has the neat property of meaning that Metafamily temperaments in the 19-prime-limit are "cubic" in analogy to how rank 3 temperaments are "planar", ad that Metafamily temperaments in the 17-prime-limit are "planar temperaments". Plus I like the fact that "Metafamily temperaments" are either equated or closely connected to Superfamilies and/or Ultrafamilies depending on how high of a rank your IUS is, further justifying the aesthetic choice of "meta" (at least IMO). [ End of suggestion/reply by Godtone (talk) 23:06, 15 January 2021 (UTC). ]

Comma tables in EDO pages

We found (on User talk:FloraC #Fractions vs. names in interval lemmas) that the comma tables on EDO pages are overloaded with information already given elsewhere. This self-evolving "convention" makes it hard to provide consistent and correct information about, (alternative) names, corrections etc. The original information should eventually find place in a dedicated page for each comma; the overview pages about commas (Large comma, Medium comma, Small comma, Unnoticeable comma) should be seen as secondary source then. Currently we tend to reduce the comma tables on EDO pages to at most three columns:

• p-Limit
• linked name or fraction (depending) on the lemma of the link target
• Comments ← only if there really are useful comments

This can be discussed in Xenharmonic Wiki talk:Things to do#Comma tables in EDO pages