Template talk:Infobox ET

Parameters

(for better accessibility/readability split into sub headings)

Subgroup

The criterion for including a subgroup could be <20 cents of dyadic error for each interval, but <10 cents for dyads of integer limit >11 because higher dyads need to be more accurate to be interpreted as that dyad. in the relevant "odd-limit" tonality diamond (and possibly consistency). IlL (talk) 10:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

"Subgroup" might be an unnecessarily convoluted way of presenting what can just be presented as harmonic series chords. For example, "18edo approximates 3:7:13:15:17:23:27:29" is more direct than the equivalent "18edo is a temperament on the 2.5.9.21.13/3.17/3.23/3.29/3 subgroup". Arguably the harmonic series chord approximated is the more directly musical property of an edo whereas the subgroup interpretation is a technical tool you use to do temperament computations. IlL (talk) 18:41, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I do think that there should be two sets of criteria for including a subgroup- superb, and passable. I'm thinking the EDO's superb subgroup representation range would be less than 3.5 cents of absolute error for base intervals in a given subgroup- e.g. 12edo and 53edo could both be considered superb at representing both 3/2 and 4/3 because of the differences from just intonation being less than 3.5 cents. Meanwhile, I'm thinking the EDO's passable subgroup representation range would involve differences of less than half of a step for said EDO- e.g. 12edo's representation of 5/4 and 8/5 is passable because the absolute error rates are less than half a step. --Aura (talk) 19:35, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Fifth type

Fifth type: not rigorously defined. Perhaps should not be named after temperaments of a mixture of ranks. Mavila, 7edo, 5edo and father are fine, I suppose. What's the boundary between flattone and meantone, and between meantone and schismic? Why is 19edo meantone and not flattone? Why is 12edo meantone and not schismic? Does it all converge to schismic when edos get large enough? FloraC (talk) 07:18, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

We could just give the size of the best fifth. IlL (talk) 09:33, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Or should the order of fifth sizes be mavila, 7edo, hypopent, (just 3/2), hyperpent, 5edo, father? IlL (talk) 09:41, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I can right away tell you that 53edo's best fifth is a Mercator/schismic. Truth be told, when the tempered out comma separating a complete chain of fifths from a stack of octaves for a given EDO is smaller than that for other EDOs in the neighborhood, the comma should lend its name to the fifth type, and other EDOs that temper out this same comma should be considered to have this same fifth type. I agree that the idea of fifth type needs more rigorous definition, but hopefully, this a start. --Aura (talk) 15:09, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

You know, infinitely many infinitely small commas are tempered out by a given edo. The exact reason why the fifth type of 53edo is schismic not counterschismic remains veiled. FloraC (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I guess because the 41 fifths doesn't close at the octave in 53edo. --Aura (talk) 17:12, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Important MOSes

Important MOSes, common uses: these will be bloated in a later stage. FloraC (talk) 07:18, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Right now there's some overlap between MOSes and notable uses, those could use a single parameter. Notable MOSes could be limited to size <=10. (and be described in a temperament-independent manner) IlL (talk) 09:33, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Example composition/score

Example composition/score: What kind of one-minute composition can be representative for an edo? Shall we hold a composing contest for this? FloraC (talk) 07:18, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I think contests for popular edos is a good idea. What kind of timeline are you thinking of for the contest? As for the kind of composition, I'd think it should showcase some of the special features of the edo. Maybe (like the current 13edo example) short sections in different MOS scales. Or showcase the way that voice leading works differently than in 12edo (e.g., a composition where major triads are dissonances in 17edo). Schrodingasdawg (talk) 18:02, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Steps or Step count

Steps or Step count: this is the most important parameter, because it lets us calculate the step size and lateron rename the page without loosing information. Also using the page title as table description is not a great idea. --Xenwolf (talk) 09:01, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Table title as page title is ok on Wikipedia iirc. IlL (talk) 09:33, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Using the page title is better if we use it as template for EDOs and non-EDOs. But - as already stated - this will have a complexity cost. --Xenwolf (talk) 09:48, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Formatting

Current notation 5*3-2*1 is confusing. Should be changed to 5L 2s (3-3-1-3-3-3-1) or 5L(3)2s(1)? IlL (talk) 17:49, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I'll go with diatonic (meantone) 5L2s 2221221 (generator = 7\12). For multi-period MOSes, diminished 4L4s 12121212 (generator = 1\12, period = 3\12) IlL (talk) 19:01, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

The formatting could be done with dedicated templates. IlL (talk) 19:07, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Template name

I find it not a such great decision to name the template ET where all pages use the EDO abbreviation. --Xenwolf (talk) 08:56, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I wanted to use it also for nonoctave ETs. But I'm fine with renaming to "edo" and using a different infobox for nonoctave equal temperaments. IlL (talk) 09:15, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

It's possible to use it for all equal divisions, but this would complicate it. You should have noticed that it's not as easy to cope with all that nested {} stuff. I'd suggest to discuss the options first. --Xenwolf (talk) 09:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Right now the only parameter that assumes edo is "Fifth type"? IlL (talk) 09:46, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I have the feeling you are misinterpreting the current situation. I'm not fighting against "your" template, I try to discuss the best solution of the problem we all have to present properties all EDOs have on EDO pages in a canonical way (that most people will accept as useful). And I'd like to participate all of us in a maximally constructive way. --Xenwolf (talk) 09:52, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

To be clear I was a bit startled. As I stated I have no problem with renaming this template. (I don't consider this template mine.) Feel free to move it and let people give feedback on the way the info is presented. IlL (talk) 10:17, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Renaming is no problem at all. To me it's the question which option will be better. We really should discuss pros and cons first. Admittedly starting with a general solution is not my way to do things that have to be done fast. You told that you were in need for such a template, as turns out seemingly only for EDO pages. If seen in this context, the decision to name it ET is just questionable, that's why I started this discussion topic. --Xenwolf (talk) 10:28, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Related project

We already started a project about a template of this kind but maybe too hidden Xenharmonic Wiki:Things to do#Infobox for EDO pages, Xenharmonic Wiki talk:Things to do#Infobox for EDO pages. In any case, it would be good to also let the thoughts there flow into the discussion here or vice versa. --Xenwolf (talk) 09:17, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Styling

I tried to reduce the color. Of course this is a matter of taste but I suggest that we use colors sparingly in the design, which involves many pages. Personally, I would prefer a shade of grey. --Xenwolf (talk) 10:18, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Normalize parameter names

It's not a good idea to start a template with alternative names for the same parameter. So I suggest to normalize the names to "Lemma case", that is, only first letter is uppercase, except for the MOS abbreviation. Category:Todo:normalize EDO parameters collects use cases of the template with parameter names that should therefore be changed. --Xenwolf (talk) 21:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)