Talk:Breed
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Disambiguate?
Maybe this should be a disambiguation page between the temperament and type of val? I'm not sure whether either one warrants prominence. --Cmloegcmluin (talk) 23:53, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
- My take: the type of val is of more prominence; temperament names are somewhat arbitrary and less important. FloraC (talk) 07:31, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
Who uses this term and what does it even mean?
First time I've seen this. It says it's a "specific type of val" but does not specify what the difference between a breed and a val is. The linked yahoo archive suggests it's supposed to be an alternate word for val... is that correct? If so it should be stated. I'm also not sure that the rename "Breed family" -> "Breed (temperament)" makes sense either; the former feels clearly more correct, and it seems like this dubious-seeming page is the only point against that state of affairs... --Godtone (talk) 17:54, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- It's clear to me; it says that a breed is a map (val) for an equal temperament, such as ⟨12 19 28] (as opposed to any other sort of map, such as ⟨1 0 -4]). That must not be clear, though, so please reword if needed. --Cmloegcmluin (talk) 19:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, but now I'm more confused about the nature of your confusion. Where did you get this "is the same thing as a val" phrase from? A breed is not the same thing as a val. It is a specific type of val. Again, a breed is a val that represents an equal temperament. Not all vals do that; some vals — such as the ⟨1 0 -4] example I gave in my previous response, which is the first mapping-row of the mapping for meantone temperament — are no good as ET maps.
- Oh, I think I see the problem. The Yahoo! groups link on the page is no good. That thread does not give the definition of breed that the community settled on. The link should probably be removed. My understanding is that "breed" is associated with the idea of cross-breeding, which I wrote about briefly here: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Temperament_merging#Cross-breeding So "breed" does come from Graham Breed's name, but it makes a pun with it too (not unlike how Gene Ward Smith's namesake, a "gene", leverages the meaning of that word). If cross-breeding crosses two breeds, and breeds are ETs, then it follows that a map (or val) for an ET is a breed. We do not think of recombining arbitrary maps like ⟨1 0 -4] or ⟨0 1 3] as cross-breeding. --Cmloegcmluin (talk) 00:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, this should probably be clarified on the beginner page val as it's not obvious that it doesn't always correspond to an equal temperament interpretation (even if we allow exotemperaments, at least assuming we don't use insane numbers of warts). Definitely at the end though, after the reader has had some time and examples to digest. I'm not sure where exactly to add the clarification though as the end part of the val page is less than ideal, maybe I should just rewrite it. And for that matter, a section on addition and subtraction of vals is deserved as iirc that's one method of converting an edo join into a mapping? (I'm not sure about that though.) --Godtone (talk) 02:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, it's unclear to me how ⟨1 0 -4] from [⟨1 0 -4], ⟨0 1 4]] isn't a val that represents an equal temp. It's a val for a certain 1et (the numbers make no practical sense as an equal temp but that's irrelevant imo). I'd say it makes more sense to think of breeds or equal-temp vals as opposed to tuning maps and the like. FloraC (talk) 10:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Godtone: That's an interesting point, that some people may not even realize that a map(ping row) doesn't necessarily correspond to an ET. I don't have strong opinions on how you address this. As for addition and subtraction, are you referring to this sort of thing: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Temperament_addition ?
- Flora: Your opinion may be that making practical sense for ETs is irrelevant, but the people who agreed to use the term "breed" for ETs had the opposite opinion: that that the numbers making practical sense for ETs did matter, and that this was the entire point of making any distinction. For the difference you mention, we already have "tuning map" vs "(temperament) map". --Cmloegcmluin (talk) 16:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- That was … crazy. Do you have source to back up what you said? I briefly mentioned the point to make sure I ruled out the other ways "how ⟨1 0 -4] isn't a val that represents an equal temp", never to expect you'd point to exactly there for the difference between breeds and vals! Now I was saying practicality was irrelevant becuz practicality was supposed to be subjective. If the difference between breeds and vals is as you said, it implies breeds should be used subjectively. Yet in your earlier responses you were saying ⟨1 0 -4] wasn't a breed like an objective fact, and I was thinking there must be something technical about it, like maybe becuz of the negative number? maybe becuz it was taken out of a rank-2 temp? To me any integer val represents an equal temp, and whether it makes practical sense or not is another issue.
- Another understanding in terminology that I hold but you might differ is that a tuning map is a val becuz (1) a val is a synonym of a map, as you proposed, and (2) a tuning map is a map. Following that, a val doesn't need to represent an equal temp, but a breed always does. So that is a greater distinction between a val and a breed and so practicality isn't the entire point of making the distinction. I'm very interested in what you think of this point here. Thanks in advance. FloraC (talk) 17:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- When I said ⟨1 0 -4] isn't a breed, I understood that there was no mathematical objectivity to that classification, and didn't mean to imply that there was any. It occurs to me that I've been assuming a standard (prime-limit) domain basis, and that with a well-crafted domain basis, any map could be made into a reasonable ET.
- I don't have a source ready to back up what I said and don't have time or energy to find one. I was just trying to help someone on the wiki but I don't care enough about this issue to debate anyone about it. Sorry.
- I will stick with using "map", which defaults to meaning "temperament map", where I only need to use the word "temperament" when I need to disambiguate with other types of maps such as "tuning maps". I don't use "breed" in my own work, but I will stick to assuming it means a map which appears to be for a practical ET. --Cmloegcmluin (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)