Talk:Marvel temperaments: Difference between revisions

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:::::::: [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 05:10, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

::::::::: Thanks for this, Flora. In this case, I'm more than happy for the answers to my suggestions to be "no". I admit that I can be a bit of a consistency-phile sometimes...even when I dislike the thing I'm consistentizing! You've clearly shown here that the proper state for these temperament names — with respect to this weird prefix-suffix naming pattern that some folks tried out in the past — is inconsistency. When naming patterns like this get subjected to historical forces they often start falling apart, and this is just one of those messier cases. So I accept that things are what they are.

::::::::: Re: making negri as a family, then, if anyone does want to pursue it, that's totally fine with me; I don't care either way.

::::::::: I suppose all I'd really ask for is a note on at least one page somewhere explaining how for dimipent and sensipent, the "-pent" part was originally meant to indicate the 5-limit, but has since lost that meaning, without disappearing as it did in the case of negripent → negri.

::::::::: --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 17:00, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

::::::::: I just noticed something else while looking at the [[Temperament names]] page. It appears that the "sept-" prefix was used as a suffix in a temperament name ''but in a different way'' than this pattern which was meant to indicate the prime limit. In the name "semisept" it's probably meant to convey the septimal nature of a major sixth (which is semi'd, so I suppose this is a variation on the outdated temperament name "semisixths", which is probably somehow related to sensi; this temperament does not appear, however, to be the same thing as sensisept / 7-limit sensi, as we can see here: https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_74762#74779). So that's just another complication to consider in our documentation of this naming pattern. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 21:13, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

::::::::: One more thing. I found this page (https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_97783.html#98172) where Graham writes:

<nowiki>The "sept"/"pent" distinction was according to a rule I never agreed

with. I think it was that the TOP tunings had to be the same for the

name to be the same. Gene ignores it. I don't care much either way

for established names, but I may have to keep "Sensisept" because it

exists in a higher limit. I can see the rule makes some sense if

we're talking about temperaments, as I understand them. The existence

of the rule may indicate Paul was understanding temperaments a similar

way. But as I understand temperament classes (which is similar to how

others understand regular temperaments) the tuning is allowed to vary

over a wide range. There are subjective rules I follow when I share

names over different limits and we can talk about individual cases if

you like. I don't have a fixed definition, or deterministic

algorithm, for deciding if two things in different limits are the

same, and I don't want one.</nowiki>

::::::::: So that gives some additional insight to the use of these prefixes, though I haven't yet found the original proposal of this distinction that Graham is referring to. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 21:51, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

:::::::::: ''Semisept'' should be analysed as ''semi-'' prefixed on ''sept'' so the ''sept'' isn't a "suffix" as in ''sensisept'' tho it appears identical. I added a short description to the temperament. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 07:55, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

::::::::::: Okay, thanks for explaining that, Flora.

::::::::::: I did some more research and added notes about the -pent and -sept suffixes to the [[Temperament names]] page under Diminished and dimipent, and linked to there from the sensi section as well as the new section you added to the Negri page. This leaves me satisfied. Feel free to discuss or revise further if I've missed anything. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 22:52, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 44: / Line 44: @@
 :::::::: [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 05:10, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
+::::::::: Thanks for this, Flora. In this case, I'm more than happy for the answers to my suggestions to be "no". I admit that I can be a bit of a consistency-phile sometimes...even when I dislike the thing I'm consistentizing! You've clearly shown here that the proper state for these temperament names — with respect to this weird prefix-suffix naming pattern that some folks tried out in the past — is inconsistency. When naming patterns like this get subjected to historical forces they often start falling apart, and this is just one of those messier cases. So I accept that things are what they are.
+::::::::: Re: making negri as a family, then, if anyone does want to pursue it, that's totally fine with me; I don't care either way.
+::::::::: I suppose all I'd really ask for is a note on at least one page somewhere explaining how for dimipent and sensipent, the "-pent" part was originally meant to indicate the 5-limit, but has since lost that meaning, without disappearing as it did in the case of negripent → negri.
+::::::::: --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 17:00, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
+::::::::: I just noticed something else while looking at the [[Temperament names]] page. It appears that the "sept-" prefix was used as a suffix in a temperament name ''but in a different way'' than this pattern which was meant to indicate the prime limit. In the name "semisept" it's probably meant to convey the septimal nature of a major sixth (which is semi'd, so I suppose this is a variation on the outdated temperament name "semisixths", which is probably somehow related to sensi; this temperament does not appear, however, to be the same thing as sensisept / 7-limit sensi, as we can see here: https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_74762#74779). So that's just another complication to consider in our documentation of this naming pattern. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 21:13, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
+::::::::: One more thing. I found this page (https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_97783.html#98172) where Graham writes:
+ <nowiki>The "sept"/"pent" distinction was according to a rule I never agreed
+with. I think it was that the TOP tunings had to be the same for the
+name to be the same. Gene ignores it. I don't care much either way
+for established names, but I may have to keep "Sensisept" because it
+exists in a higher limit. I can see the rule makes some sense if
+we're talking about temperaments, as I understand them. The existence
+of the rule may indicate Paul was understanding temperaments a similar
+way. But as I understand temperament classes (which is similar to how
+others understand regular temperaments) the tuning is allowed to vary
+over a wide range. There are subjective rules I follow when I share
+names over different limits and we can talk about individual cases if
+you like. I don't have a fixed definition, or deterministic
+algorithm, for deciding if two things in different limits are the
+same, and I don't want one.</nowiki>
+::::::::: So that gives some additional insight to the use of these prefixes, though I haven't yet found the original proposal of this distinction that Graham is referring to. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 21:51, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
+:::::::::: ''Semisept'' should be analysed as ''semi-'' prefixed on ''sept'' so the ''sept'' isn't a "suffix" as in ''sensisept'' tho it appears identical. I added a short description to the temperament. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 07:55, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
+::::::::::: Okay, thanks for explaining that, Flora.
+::::::::::: I did some more research and added notes about the -pent and -sept suffixes to the [[Temperament names]] page under Diminished and dimipent, and linked to there from the sensi section as well as the new section you added to the Negri page. This leaves me satisfied. Feel free to discuss or revise further if I've missed anything. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 22:52, 29 June 2023 (UTC)