Talk:Marvel temperaments: Difference between revisions

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:::::: I don't know of other temperaments who would use -pent and -sept suffixes. I know however that most temperaments which have various strong extensions (and possibly other relationships, I'm not sure if it always has to be strong extensions) can be distinguished by terms like "5-limit X" or "7-limit X", and I suppose subgroups (which are not prime limits) could be used in a similar fashion as well. --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 19:31, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

::::::: Right. That's the approach I prefer, and I suspected this preference was shared widely. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 20:11, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

::::::: I see that Flora has added information about negripent and negrisept to the Negri page. However, this still leaves us in an inconsistent position re: sensipent and sensisept, and dimipent and dimisept. I remind folks that while I don't like this naming pattern and would rather not propagate it further, it does appear to be the case that with some intentionality it has already been propagated at least as far as these three cases: ''currently, "sensipent" and "dimipent" are given as the names of the 5-limit temperaments, as well as the entire family''.

::::::: But this seems strange to me to include the 5-limit-specific suffix in the name the family, which includes all the higher-limit extensions. The [[Sensipent family]] page begins, "Temperaments of the sensipent family temper out the sensipent comma". I feel like it would it be more logical for this to be "Temperaments of the sensi family temper out the sensipent comma"; this implies how these temperaments also temper out other higher-limit commas in addition to this 5-limit comma, and that their name will likely be a variant based on the "sensi" root but without any longer including the "-pent" suffix. Similarly, "dimipent family" should probably be the "dimi family", then, which includes temperaments like "diminished".

::::::: Negri is not explicitly identified as a family at this time; it is a section on a clan page. Should it be explicitly identified as a family, and "negripent" given as a name for the base 5-limit temperament of this family?

::::::: "Negrisept" is currently given as "7-limit (negri)". Should "negrisept" be added to that section title in parentheses, in the same way that "negra" is included in parentheses as a name for the 2.3.5.7.13 extension?

::::::: "Sensisept" is currently given as "Septimal sensi". Should "sensisept" be added to that section title in parentheses?

::::::: Is "dimisept" the same as "diminished"? If so, should it be added to that section title in parentheses?

::::::: I think the answer to each of those questions is "yes". Finally, I suggest that all three of these pages should acknowledge and briefly explain the naming pattern shared among them, to prevent inconsistencies between them from developing in the future.

::::::: --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 16:32, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

:::::::: My general answer to all the questions is no, remarking:

:::::::: ''Negripent'' and ''negrisept'' occurred in Middle Path (2006), but not in Tuning Continua (2008), or so described by any existing music in the temperament, so these are just deprecated names no longer in use. Even for ''negra'' I'm not that sure it should continue to be labeled as official since negri extends just naturally to the 2.3.5.7.13 subgroup. ''Sensisept'' and ''dimisept'' should be considered obsolete for the same reason, along with ''semisixths''. I haven't seen anyone utter these alternative names since the 2010s.

:::::::: Maybe there's a fair reason why ''sensipent'' stuck – the 5-limit is considerably more accurate than the main 7-limit extension, and there are many other reasonable extensions. Whether that's enough to justify separate names for 5- and 7-limit sensi is debatable.

:::::::: Finally, if we're to identify negri as the head of a family, it seems we should immediately name an alternative extension to it. 19 & 48 and 29 & 48 might be good to consider.

:::::::: [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 05:10, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

::::::::: Thanks for this, Flora. In this case, I'm more than happy for the answers to my suggestions to be "no". I admit that I can be a bit of a consistency-phile sometimes...even when I dislike the thing I'm consistentizing! You've clearly shown here that the proper state for these temperament names — with respect to this weird prefix-suffix naming pattern that some folks tried out in the past — is inconsistency. When naming patterns like this get subjected to historical forces they often start falling apart, and this is just one of those messier cases. So I accept that things are what they are.

::::::::: Re: making negri as a family, then, if anyone does want to pursue it, that's totally fine with me; I don't care either way.

::::::::: I suppose all I'd really ask for is a note on at least one page somewhere explaining how for dimipent and sensipent, the "-pent" part was originally meant to indicate the 5-limit, but has since lost that meaning, without disappearing as it did in the case of negripent → negri.

::::::::: --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 17:00, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

::::::::: I just noticed something else while looking at the [[Temperament names]] page. It appears that the "sept-" prefix was used as a suffix in a temperament name ''but in a different way'' than this pattern which was meant to indicate the prime limit. In the name "semisept" it's probably meant to convey the septimal nature of a major sixth (which is semi'd, so I suppose this is a variation on the outdated temperament name "semisixths", which is probably somehow related to sensi; this temperament does not appear, however, to be the same thing as sensisept / 7-limit sensi, as we can see here: https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_74762#74779). So that's just another complication to consider in our documentation of this naming pattern. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 21:13, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

::::::::: One more thing. I found this page (https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_97783.html#98172) where Graham writes:

<nowiki>The "sept"/"pent" distinction was according to a rule I never agreed

with. I think it was that the TOP tunings had to be the same for the

name to be the same. Gene ignores it. I don't care much either way

for established names, but I may have to keep "Sensisept" because it

exists in a higher limit. I can see the rule makes some sense if

we're talking about temperaments, as I understand them. The existence

of the rule may indicate Paul was understanding temperaments a similar

way. But as I understand temperament classes (which is similar to how

others understand regular temperaments) the tuning is allowed to vary

over a wide range. There are subjective rules I follow when I share

names over different limits and we can talk about individual cases if

you like. I don't have a fixed definition, or deterministic

algorithm, for deciding if two things in different limits are the

same, and I don't want one.</nowiki>

::::::::: So that gives some additional insight to the use of these prefixes, though I haven't yet found the original proposal of this distinction that Graham is referring to. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 21:51, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

:::::::::: ''Semisept'' should be analysed as ''semi-'' prefixed on ''sept'' so the ''sept'' isn't a "suffix" as in ''sensisept'' tho it appears identical. I added a short description to the temperament. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 07:55, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

::::::::::: Okay, thanks for explaining that, Flora.

::::::::::: I did some more research and added notes about the -pent and -sept suffixes to the [[Temperament names]] page under Diminished and dimipent, and linked to there from the sensi section as well as the new section you added to the Negri page. This leaves me satisfied. Feel free to discuss or revise further if I've missed anything. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 22:52, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 26: / Line 26: @@
 :::::: I don't know of other temperaments who would use -pent and -sept suffixes. I know however that most temperaments which have various strong extensions (and possibly other relationships, I'm not sure if it always has to be strong extensions) can be distinguished by terms like "5-limit X" or "7-limit X", and I suppose subgroups (which are not prime limits) could be used in a similar fashion as well. --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 19:31, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 ::::::: Right. That's the approach I prefer, and I suspected this preference was shared widely. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 20:11, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
+::::::: I see that Flora has added information about negripent and negrisept to the Negri page. However, this still leaves us in an inconsistent position re: sensipent and sensisept, and dimipent and dimisept. I remind folks that while I don't like this naming pattern and would rather not propagate it further, it does appear to be the case that with some intentionality it has already been propagated at least as far as these three cases: ''currently, "sensipent" and "dimipent" are given as the names of the 5-limit temperaments, as well as the entire family''.
+::::::: But this seems strange to me to include the 5-limit-specific suffix in the name the family, which includes all the higher-limit extensions. The [[Sensipent family]] page begins, "Temperaments of the sensipent family temper out the sensipent comma". I feel like it would it be more logical for this to be "Temperaments of the sensi family temper out the sensipent comma"; this implies how these temperaments also temper out other higher-limit commas in addition to this 5-limit comma, and that their name will likely be a variant based on the "sensi" root but without any longer including the "-pent" suffix. Similarly, "dimipent family" should probably be the "dimi family", then, which includes temperaments like "diminished".
+::::::: Negri is not explicitly identified as a family at this time; it is a section on a clan page. Should it be explicitly identified as a family, and "negripent" given as a name for the base 5-limit temperament of this family?
+::::::: "Negrisept" is currently given as "7-limit (negri)". Should "negrisept" be added to that section title in parentheses, in the same way that "negra" is included in parentheses as a name for the 2.3.5.7.13 extension?
+::::::: "Sensisept" is currently given as "Septimal sensi". Should "sensisept" be added to that section title in parentheses?
+::::::: Is "dimisept" the same as "diminished"? If so, should it be added to that section title in parentheses?
+::::::: I think the answer to each of those questions is "yes". Finally, I suggest that all three of these pages should acknowledge and briefly explain the naming pattern shared among them, to prevent inconsistencies between them from developing in the future.
+::::::: --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 16:32, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
+:::::::: My general answer to all the questions is no, remarking:
+:::::::: ''Negripent'' and ''negrisept'' occurred in Middle Path (2006), but not in Tuning Continua (2008), or so described by any existing music in the temperament, so these are just deprecated names no longer in use. Even for ''negra'' I'm not that sure it should continue to be labeled as official since negri extends just naturally to the 2.3.5.7.13 subgroup. ''Sensisept'' and ''dimisept'' should be considered obsolete for the same reason, along with ''semisixths''. I haven't seen anyone utter these alternative names since the 2010s.
+:::::::: Maybe there's a fair reason why ''sensipent'' stuck – the 5-limit is considerably more accurate than the main 7-limit extension, and there are many other reasonable extensions. Whether that's enough to justify separate names for 5- and 7-limit sensi is debatable.
+:::::::: Finally, if we're to identify negri as the head of a family, it seems we should immediately name an alternative extension to it. 19 & 48 and 29 & 48 might be good to consider.
+:::::::: [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 05:10, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
+::::::::: Thanks for this, Flora. In this case, I'm more than happy for the answers to my suggestions to be "no". I admit that I can be a bit of a consistency-phile sometimes...even when I dislike the thing I'm consistentizing! You've clearly shown here that the proper state for these temperament names — with respect to this weird prefix-suffix naming pattern that some folks tried out in the past — is inconsistency. When naming patterns like this get subjected to historical forces they often start falling apart, and this is just one of those messier cases. So I accept that things are what they are.
+::::::::: Re: making negri as a family, then, if anyone does want to pursue it, that's totally fine with me; I don't care either way.
+::::::::: I suppose all I'd really ask for is a note on at least one page somewhere explaining how for dimipent and sensipent, the "-pent" part was originally meant to indicate the 5-limit, but has since lost that meaning, without disappearing as it did in the case of negripent → negri.
+::::::::: --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 17:00, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
+::::::::: I just noticed something else while looking at the [[Temperament names]] page. It appears that the "sept-" prefix was used as a suffix in a temperament name ''but in a different way'' than this pattern which was meant to indicate the prime limit. In the name "semisept" it's probably meant to convey the septimal nature of a major sixth (which is semi'd, so I suppose this is a variation on the outdated temperament name "semisixths", which is probably somehow related to sensi; this temperament does not appear, however, to be the same thing as sensisept / 7-limit sensi, as we can see here: https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_74762#74779). So that's just another complication to consider in our documentation of this naming pattern. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 21:13, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
+::::::::: One more thing. I found this page (https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_97783.html#98172) where Graham writes:
+ <nowiki>The "sept"/"pent" distinction was according to a rule I never agreed
+with. I think it was that the TOP tunings had to be the same for the
+name to be the same. Gene ignores it. I don't care much either way
+for established names, but I may have to keep "Sensisept" because it
+exists in a higher limit. I can see the rule makes some sense if
+we're talking about temperaments, as I understand them. The existence
+of the rule may indicate Paul was understanding temperaments a similar
+way. But as I understand temperament classes (which is similar to how
+others understand regular temperaments) the tuning is allowed to vary
+over a wide range. There are subjective rules I follow when I share
+names over different limits and we can talk about individual cases if
+you like. I don't have a fixed definition, or deterministic
+algorithm, for deciding if two things in different limits are the
+same, and I don't want one.</nowiki>
+::::::::: So that gives some additional insight to the use of these prefixes, though I haven't yet found the original proposal of this distinction that Graham is referring to. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 21:51, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
+:::::::::: ''Semisept'' should be analysed as ''semi-'' prefixed on ''sept'' so the ''sept'' isn't a "suffix" as in ''sensisept'' tho it appears identical. I added a short description to the temperament. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 07:55, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
+::::::::::: Okay, thanks for explaining that, Flora.
+::::::::::: I did some more research and added notes about the -pent and -sept suffixes to the [[Temperament names]] page under Diminished and dimipent, and linked to there from the sensi section as well as the new section you added to the Negri page. This leaves me satisfied. Feel free to discuss or revise further if I've missed anything. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 22:52, 29 June 2023 (UTC)