User talk:Ayceman

4L 7s name and notation

Hi. I reviewed your recent addition to 4L 7s and I have a few questions. I noticed the name "mynatonic", yet I find myna isn't quite representative for 4L 7s. Instead, 4L 7s more typically covers hanson with various extensions (keemun, catakleismic, countercata etc.) and superkleismic. Myna has better scale structures in 4L 11s and 4L 15s, so I guess "mynatonic" would better fit one of those. Another problem is that "mynatonic" sounds really close to "minortonic", which is a temperament associated with the generator of a minor tone (10/9). So I'd reconsider about that name.

Is the notation part of the diamond MOS notation, such that it switches to cyrillic letters when the number of tones reaches 11?

In mode names, is the double v in "Supervvardenic" intended or a typo? Given that 4L 7s modes are "super-", what do you think would it be for 7L 4s modes?

I appreciate your answers. FloraC (talk) 01:19, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Cyrillic letters are not part of Diamond MOS. The double v is not a typo (it's named after Vvardenfell). Inthar (talk) 01:35, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

4L 7s is still the minimum to get something out of Myna, and is a manageable set of naturals, which is why I picked it. If you think that another name fits is better, I'd like to hear suggestions, Maybe kleismitonic? I'd be hesitant to call it supersmitonic, as the generator is near a just minor third, unlike the average for smitonic.

The notation isn't Diamond MOS. That uses a different set of accidentals. This uses regular accidental notation, with the regular Latin letters replaced by Cyrillic numerals to differentiate it better when the set of naturals is high. Cyrillic used letters as numbers, per the old Greek model (like in Porcupine 8 Greek notation), which works 1-10, and I added an unused one for 11, as otherwise it would be IA.

Inthar is correct, the vv is intentional. In the Elder Scrolls the Dwemeris name Vvardenfell (Vvarden = Strong Shield and Fell = City/Province) refered to Red Mountain, then the whole island, so Super+vvarden+ic. Ayceman (talk) 02:30, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

And I'm not sure about the 7L 4s, maybe play up the fact that is works with sixix and 2 different fifths, I'm a bit stuck at naming it. Ayceman (talk)

Cheers. You know, hanson has the 6th genstep mapped to harmonic 3 whereas myna has the 10th, so myna is essentially "one more cycle", that is, +4 small steps than hanson. On that basis, I suggest 4L 7s based on hanson and 4L 11s based on myna. How about kleistonic?

So this isn't diamond MOS notation. Then why not? Isn't diamond MOS notation meant to handle all the MOSes?

For the mode name, I wasn't aware double v at word initial is possible in English, but if there's a source (it really isn't a W, right?), then I'm fine with it. Btw I still have a problem with one of the 5L 4s mode names, Tjatupian. The tj cluster is wild, and if j is pronounced as /j/, I hope to get it respelled as Tiatupian. FloraC (talk) 06:25, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Kleistonic sounds nice, sure. It also avoids the "sm" bit with rather unfortunate implication of derivatives of Greek κλείσμα (kleisma) ['kliz.ma] meaning enema in some languages. I'll make the change.

As far as 4L11s is concerned, I guess mytonic might work to avoid minortonic confusion, but I'm not doing modes, intervals, and notation for 15 note r-2 scales.

I haven't seen any notice on diamond notation being in anyway standard for these. It seems Inthar is using it in articles he wrote. In any case, the relevant bit is the abstraction of the chroma and the staff notation itself, but with a lack of glyph support for notation software and specific Unicode symbols, I don't see it being a practical standard anytime soon. Personally, I think that #/b works fine for any abstracted chroma in smaller edos, and sagittal is useful for bigger ones. The choice of letters depends more on the number of naturals. I'd go A-G for heptatonic (std), J-Q for octatonic (oneiro), Arab numerals for nonatonic (Armodue), Greek numerals for decatonic, and this Cyrillic 10+1 numeral system for hendecatonic.

A lot of these names don't have to conform to English phonology, same as any foreign name import. They're just hammered into one pronunciation of another. This "vv" is a literal [v], the "tj" mentioned could be either [tj] (ty) or [tʃ] (ch), and it doesn't matter. I pronounce smitonic with an [i]/[ɪ] instead of an [aj], and it's all the same. Ayceman (talk) 20:36, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and thanks to Inthar for promptly editing the tables before I could. Ayceman (talk)

Unfortunately, mytonic is even more of a problem (Minortonic family #Mitonic), so we might stick to mynatonic for now.

Ty for explanations. I understood that foreign words aren't anglicized anymore. I'm just not fond of intentionally picking difficult names following the notion of "xen". FloraC (talk) 11:23, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, the most difficult ones for English seem to be the ones with glottal stops written as apostrophes. Standard practice, but they break up the word flow in English if actually pronounced.

Oh, and I just got an idea for 4L 11s. How about mynoid? Short and to the point. Ayceman (talk) 18:33, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Sometimes we go for -tonic and sometimes -oid. What's the rule? FloraC (talk) 08:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Whatever fits? Ayceman (talk) 18:03, 11 April 2021 (UTC)