User talk:Rperlner: Difference between revisions

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--[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 00:04, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Here is the continuation of my conversation:

--------

Dear Dr. Oz

I have posted the conversation so far on my talk page:

https://en.xen.wiki/w/User_talk:Rperlner#Email_exchange_with_Dr._Ozan_Yarman

Thank you for granting me permission to do so.

I have a couple of follow up questions, if you don’t mind. First of all, when you say you “tried the scale I indicated” what exactly do you mean by that? Did you look it up somewhere, or did you listen to it in some software, or something else entirely?

Keep in mind, if it’s the latter, that assuming the 507/512 comma is tempered out, the cents values would need to be altered, for example all the intervals with 13 in the numerator might be ~8.5 cents larger than their just values, and those with 13 in the denominator might be ~8.5 cents flat, or alternatively you might use an equal temperament like 34 EDO that tempers this comma out in its patent val.

Taking the first approach would result in a scale like 0, 147, 351, 463, 737, 849, 1035, 1200. Alternatively, I could see the 1035 being raised to 1080 (on the way up?) to represent 13/7.

Second of all, when you say “outlandish Turkish understanding of Huzzam” I assume you mean the analysis comes from parts of Turkey away from the major population centers? Typically, the English word “outlandish” means absurd or ridiculous, but the former understanding makes more sense in context.

By the way, this “outlandish” Turkish scale looks like it should work the same way as the scale I had in mind, with the pitch marked at 16/13 needing to be lowered to 39/32 in order to make a perfect fourth with 13/8 and outline the Hijaz tetrachord in the middle of the scale.

Finally, can you comment on the Arabic understandings of Huzam, which is what I originally had in mind? This scale is notated several places using quartertone notation, and it is similar to the Turkish scales you mention, but, at least taking the notation literally, does not have either a perfect fourth or a perfect 5th above the tonic. Both perfect intervals seem like too strong relationships with the tonic to be missed by the notation if they are really present in the Arabic scale.

Best, Ray

--------

Dear Ray, I meant raising 1/1 and 4/3 up while keeping the 13/12 and 16/13, etc... in place. Sorry if I expressed myself in a roundabout fashion.

The scale you indicated that I took as reference was when you said " ... if we can interpret the full scale as something like 1: 13/12 : 16/13 or 39/32 : 13/10 : 20/13 : 13/8 : 20/11: 2, ..."

Yes, by outlandish I tend to mean more Arabicized-Kurdicized parts of southeastern Turkey, and maybe Lazica and Georgic lands of the Pontus. By that I mean no racism of course. Take it rather as a pun on the actual ridiculousness of the supremacism of "white-Turks" of "de facto Turkey" close to the Aegean.

Thus, I meant the other way round than what you said here:

> Taking the first approach would result in a scale like 0, 147, 351, 463, 737, 849, 1035, 1200. Alternatively, I could see the 1035 being raised to 1080 (on the way up?) to represent 13/7.

I think Sami Abu Shumays would be a better source to comment on the Arabic Huzzam. The issue is, if I had to say something about it, to quartertonalize some pitches and to semitonalize some others.

Cordially,

Dr. Oz.

--------

Dear Dr. Oz

Thank you for your recommendation to ask Sami Abu Shumays about Arabic tunings of Huzam. I shall look him up.

I do have a question about your last email, though. I am not sure I understand what you mean by "raising 1/1 and 4/3 up while keeping the 13/12 and 16/13, etc... in place. " It seems doing that would not temper out the 512/507 comma. It seems like tempering that comma tends to raise the representation of the 13th harmonic, so these pitches (not containing any factors of 13) would need to move in opposite directions against 13/12, which has 13 in the numerator, and 16/13, which has 13 in the denominator. I could only see that strategy working if it was 14/13 and 16/13, say.

In any event, can I take as a summary of this exchange that, while there are a variety of versions of Huzzam in use in Turkish and neighboring regions, some of them may reasonably be analyzed as tempering out the 512/507 comma?

Finally, Aura requests that I ask you for comment on his composition https://en.xen.wiki/w/File:Space_Tour.mp3 . I think he sees you as somewhat of a kindred spirit due to your shared interest in 159 EDO, which this composition uses. While I'm asking about compositions, you may also want to check out one of mine https://en.xen.wiki/w/File:A_stroll_through_some_retuned_maqams.mp3 , which tries to interpret maqams as scales in 34 edo and use them contrapuntally.

Best,

Ray

--------

Dear Ray, forgive me once more for the late reply. Here is the situation regarding what I'm trying to say but failing at it...

> How about then my Hüzzam (Turkish Segah, Huzzam and Mustear ver.2 with perde segah on E by Dr. Oz.) key-transposed to C:

>

> 0: 1/1 0.000000 unison, perfect prime PERDE SEGAH

> 1: 392/363 133.060927

> 2: 40/33 333.040771

> 3: 175/132 488.180391

> 4: 147/110 501.975158

> 5: 3/2 701.955001 perfect fifth

> 6: 196/121 835.015928 two (undecimal diminished fourth or major third)

> 7: 20/11 1034.995772 large minor seventh

> 8: 12544/6655 1097.384272

> 9: 441/220 1203.930158 Werckmeister's undecimal septenarian schisma +1 octave

Consider then the 175/132 (488 cents) as our "tempered pitch" vis-a-vis an imaginary tridecimal perde hisar counterpart which we can assume to be 169/128 (481 cents) located downwards from 4/3 (if you will forego my 441/220 "brighter octave" attempt leading to 147/110 as the "perfect fourth").

Were we to re-position the whole thing so as to start Hüzzam on E that I personally nominate as perde segah (where C is now 1/1 and hence the ordinary Arabic-wise consistent perde rast):

0: 1/1 0.000000 unison, perfect prime

1: 55/49 199.979843 quasi-equal major second

2: 64/55 262.368344

3: 25/21 301.846520 BP second, quasi-tempered minor third

4: 99/80 368.914230 PERDE SEGAH

5: 147/110 501.975158

6: 7/5 582.512193 septimal or Huygens' tritone, BP fourth

7: 3/2 701.955001 perfect fifth

8: 16731/10240 849.969554

9: 105/64 857.094621 septimal neutral sixth (tempered? hisar)

10: 1323/800 870.889388

11: 99/56 986.402038

12: 297/160 1070.869231

13: 441/220 1203.930158 Werckmeister's undecimal septenarian schisma +1 octave

and replace the 105/64 with 64/39, we could re-express the whole thing as:

0: 1/1 0.000000 unison, perfect prime

1: 55/49 199.979843 quasi-equal major second

2: 64/55 262.368344

3: 25/21 301.846520 BP second, quasi-tempered minor third

4: 99/80 368.914230 PERDE SEGAH

5: 147/110 501.975158

6: 7/5 582.512193 septimal or Huygens' tritone, BP fourth

7: 3/2 701.955001 perfect fifth

8: 13/8 840.527662 tridecimal neutral sixth (UNTEMPERED HiSAR)

9: 64/39 857.517337 39th subharmonic (TEMPERED? HiSAR)

10: 1323/800 870.889388 DiK HiSAR

11: 99/56 986.402038

12: 297/160 1070.869231

13: 441/220 1203.930158 Werckmeister's undecimal septenarian schisma +1 octave

To further undo my "brighter 441/220 octave" setup, you can replace the last unwieldy 1323/800 "dik hisar" with 33/20 and even the 147/110 "perde chargah" with 4/3 so that the whole panorama between segah and dik hisar will be revealed according to our liking:

4: 99/80 368.914230 PERDE SEGAH

5: 4/3 498.044999 perfect fourth PERDE CHARGAH (for Hüzzam+Segah)

6: 7/5 582.512193 septimal or Huygens' tritone (PERDE HiCAZ for Müstear)

7: 3/2 701.955001 perfect fifth PERDE NEVA

8: 13/8 840.527662 tridecimal neutral sixth UNTEMPERED HİSAR

9: 64/39 857.517337 39th subharmonic TEMPERED? HİSAR

10: 33/20 866.959229 DiK HiSAR (for makams Segah and Müstear)

Feel free to add this additional discourse to your TALK page if you so desire.

Cordially,

Dr. Oz.

P.S. I'm listening to Aura's "Space Tour" as it is raining outside at 10:00 during night time here. The beeping sounds in the beginning and end are nice, but the choir and later the calliope does not always mesh so well I think. On the other hand I very much like the occasional microtonal pitch level changes. However there are too many octave and unison passages that I would rather replace with some microtonal flavored chords and more microtonal commatic/quartertonal/etc... level shifts. Anyway, it gets much better halfway and towards the end. I recommend that he doesn't shy away from being xenharmonically bold! (which I should also try myself...) The story is also catchy! Regardless of any criticism, I support 159-tET endeavors of this kind. :)

P.S.2 After that I took a look at your song. I very much appreciate 34-tET as a very valid alternative that just so happened to perform even better than 41-tET for approximating Turkish masters' "histogram autopeaks" in my latest published study here:

Ozan Yarman: “Search for an Optimal Tonal-System for an Authentic Turkish Soundscape,” Near Eastern Musicology Online 5 9 |2020-11|p. 73–111.

> 15 AUGUST 2020, Nemo Journal (last revision draft), O. Yarman, "SEARCH FOR THE OPTIMAL TONE-SYSTEM FOR AN AUTHENTIC TURKISH SOUNDSCAPE: WEIGHING SEVERAL MORE THEORETICAL MODELS ON MAKAM MUSIC AGAINST PITCH-HISTOGRAMS".

> http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/WeighingAgainstHistograms_SEARCH_FOR_THE_OPTIMAL_TONE-SYSTEM.pdf

> ---CONCOMITANT COMPUTATIONAL MUSICOLOGY SET: http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/searchfortheoptimaltonesystem.zip

So, I congratulate you and Aura for your deep interest in microtonality and Makam music!

--[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 01:04, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

: Truth be told, I don't know a lot about Arabic/Turkish/Persian music, but from the sounds of things, 512/507 should be named after "hisar". Since the "rastma" has the "-ma" suffix, perhaps we should call 512/507 the "hisarma". --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 00:46, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 258: / Line 258: @@
 --------
 --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 00:04, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
+Here is the continuation of my conversation:
+--------
+Dear Dr. Oz
+I have posted the conversation so far on my talk page:
+https://en.xen.wiki/w/User_talk:Rperlner#Email_exchange_with_Dr._Ozan_Yarman
+Thank you for granting me permission to do so.
+I have a couple of follow up questions, if you don’t mind. First of all, when you say you “tried the scale I indicated” what exactly do you mean by that? Did you look it up somewhere, or did you listen to it in some software, or something else entirely?
+Keep in mind, if it’s the latter, that assuming the 507/512 comma is tempered out, the cents values  would need to be altered, for example all the intervals with 13 in the numerator might be ~8.5 cents larger than their just values, and those with 13  in the denominator might be  ~8.5 cents flat, or alternatively you might use an equal temperament like 34 EDO that tempers this comma out in its patent val.
+Taking the first approach would result in a scale like 0, 147, 351, 463, 737, 849, 1035, 1200. Alternatively, I could see the 1035 being raised to 1080 (on the way up?) to represent 13/7.
+Second of all, when you say “outlandish Turkish understanding of Huzzam” I assume you mean the analysis comes from parts of Turkey away from the major population centers? Typically, the English word “outlandish” means absurd or ridiculous, but the former understanding makes more sense in context.
+By the way, this “outlandish” Turkish scale looks like it should work the same way as the scale I had in mind, with the pitch marked at 16/13 needing to be lowered to 39/32 in order to make a perfect fourth with 13/8 and outline the Hijaz tetrachord in the middle of the scale.
+Finally, can you comment on the Arabic understandings of Huzam, which is what I originally had in mind? This scale is notated several places using quartertone notation, and it is similar to the Turkish scales you mention, but, at least taking the notation literally, does not have either a perfect fourth or a perfect 5th above the tonic. Both perfect intervals seem like too strong relationships with the tonic to be missed by the notation if they are really present in the Arabic scale.
+Best, Ray
+--------
+Dear Ray, I meant raising 1/1 and 4/3 up while keeping the 13/12 and 16/13, etc... in place. Sorry if I expressed myself in a roundabout fashion.
+The scale you indicated that I took as reference was when you said " ... if we can interpret the full scale as something like 1: 13/12 : 16/13 or 39/32 : 13/10 : 20/13 : 13/8 : 20/11: 2, ..."
+Yes, by outlandish I tend to mean more Arabicized-Kurdicized parts of southeastern Turkey, and maybe Lazica and Georgic lands of the Pontus. By that I mean no racism of course. Take it rather as a pun on the actual ridiculousness of the supremacism of "white-Turks" of "de facto Turkey" close to the Aegean.
+Thus, I meant the other way round than what you said here:
+> Taking the first approach would result in a scale like 0, 147, 351, 463, 737, 849, 1035, 1200. Alternatively, I could see the 1035 being raised to 1080 (on the way up?) to represent 13/7.
+I think Sami Abu Shumays would be a better source to comment on the Arabic Huzzam. The issue is, if I had to say something about it, to quartertonalize some pitches and to semitonalize some others.
+Cordially,
+Dr. Oz.
+--------
+Dear Dr. Oz
+Thank you for your recommendation to ask Sami Abu Shumays about Arabic tunings of Huzam. I shall look him up.
+I do have a question about your last email, though. I am not sure I understand what you mean by "raising 1/1 and 4/3 up while keeping the 13/12 and 16/13, etc... in place. " It seems doing that would not temper out the 512/507 comma. It seems like tempering that comma tends to raise the representation of the 13th harmonic, so these pitches (not containing any factors of 13) would need to move in opposite directions against 13/12, which has 13 in the numerator, and 16/13, which has 13 in the denominator. I could only see that strategy working if it was 14/13  and 16/13, say.
+In any event, can I take as a summary of this exchange that, while there are a variety of versions of Huzzam in use in Turkish and neighboring regions, some of them may reasonably be analyzed as tempering out the 512/507 comma?
+Finally, Aura requests that I ask you for comment on his composition https://en.xen.wiki/w/File:Space_Tour.mp3 . I think he sees you as somewhat of a kindred spirit due to your shared interest in 159 EDO, which this composition uses. While I'm asking about compositions, you may also want to check out one of mine https://en.xen.wiki/w/File:A_stroll_through_some_retuned_maqams.mp3 , which tries to interpret maqams as scales in 34 edo and use them contrapuntally.
+Best,
+Ray
+--------
+Dear Ray, forgive me once more for the late reply. Here is the situation regarding what I'm trying to say but failing at it...
+> How about then my Hüzzam (Turkish Segah, Huzzam and Mustear ver.2 with perde segah on E by Dr. Oz.) key-transposed to C:
+>
+>   0:          1/1               0.000000 unison, perfect prime  PERDE SEGAH
+>   1:        392/363           133.060927
+>   2:         40/33            333.040771
+>   3:        175/132           488.180391
+>   4:        147/110           501.975158
+>   5:          3/2             701.955001 perfect fifth
+>   6:        196/121           835.015928 two (undecimal diminished fourth or major third)
+>   7:         20/11           1034.995772 large minor seventh
+>   8:      12544/6655         1097.384272
+>   9:        441/220          1203.930158 Werckmeister's undecimal septenarian schisma +1 octave
+Consider then the 175/132 (488 cents) as our "tempered pitch" vis-a-vis an imaginary tridecimal perde hisar counterpart which we can assume to be 169/128 (481 cents) located downwards from 4/3 (if you will forego my 441/220 "brighter octave" attempt leading to 147/110 as the "perfect fourth").
+Were we to re-position the whole thing so as to start Hüzzam on E that I personally nominate as perde segah (where C is now 1/1 and hence the ordinary Arabic-wise consistent perde rast):
+:          1/1               0.000000 unison, perfect prime
+:         55/49            199.979843 quasi-equal major second
+:         64/55            262.368344
+:         25/21            301.846520 BP second, quasi-tempered minor third
+:         99/80            368.914230 PERDE SEGAH
+:        147/110           501.975158
+:          7/5             582.512193 septimal or Huygens' tritone, BP fourth
+:          3/2             701.955001 perfect fifth
+:      16731/10240         849.969554
+:        105/64            857.094621 septimal neutral sixth (tempered? hisar)
+:       1323/800           870.889388
+:         99/56            986.402038
+:        297/160          1070.869231
+:        441/220          1203.930158 Werckmeister's undecimal septenarian schisma +1 octave
+and replace the 105/64 with 64/39, we could re-express the whole thing as:
+:          1/1               0.000000 unison, perfect prime
+:         55/49            199.979843 quasi-equal major second
+:         64/55            262.368344
+:         25/21            301.846520 BP second, quasi-tempered minor third
+:         99/80            368.914230 PERDE SEGAH
+:        147/110           501.975158
+:          7/5             582.512193 septimal or Huygens' tritone, BP fourth
+:          3/2             701.955001 perfect fifth
+:         13/8             840.527662 tridecimal neutral sixth (UNTEMPERED HiSAR)
+:         64/39            857.517337 39th subharmonic (TEMPERED? HiSAR)
+:       1323/800           870.889388 DiK HiSAR
+:         99/56            986.402038
+:        297/160          1070.869231
+:        441/220          1203.930158 Werckmeister's undecimal septenarian schisma +1 octave
+To further undo my "brighter 441/220 octave" setup, you can replace the last unwieldy 1323/800 "dik hisar" with 33/20 and even the 147/110 "perde chargah" with 4/3 so that the whole panorama between segah and dik hisar will be revealed according to our liking:
+:         99/80            368.914230 PERDE SEGAH
+:          4/3             498.044999 perfect fourth  PERDE CHARGAH (for Hüzzam+Segah)
+:          7/5             582.512193 septimal or Huygens' tritone (PERDE HiCAZ for Müstear)
+:          3/2             701.955001 perfect fifth   PERDE NEVA
+:         13/8             840.527662 tridecimal neutral sixth UNTEMPERED HİSAR
+:         64/39            857.517337 39th subharmonic TEMPERED? HİSAR
+:         33/20            866.959229 DiK HiSAR (for makams Segah and Müstear)
+Feel free to add this additional discourse to your TALK page if you so desire.
+Cordially,
+Dr. Oz.
+P.S. I'm listening to Aura's "Space Tour" as it is raining outside at 10:00 during night time here. The beeping sounds in the beginning and end are nice, but the choir and later the calliope does not always mesh so well I think. On the other hand I very much like the occasional microtonal pitch level changes. However there are too many octave and unison passages that I would rather replace with some microtonal flavored chords and more microtonal commatic/quartertonal/etc... level shifts. Anyway, it gets much better halfway and towards the end. I recommend that he doesn't shy away from being xenharmonically bold! (which I should also try myself...) The story is also catchy! Regardless of any criticism, I support 159-tET endeavors of this kind. :)
+P.S.2 After that I took a look at your song. I very much appreciate 34-tET as a very valid alternative that just so happened to perform even better than 41-tET for approximating Turkish masters' "histogram autopeaks" in my latest published study here:
+Ozan Yarman: “Search for an Optimal Tonal-System for an Authentic Turkish Soundscape,” Near Eastern Musicology Online 5 9 |2020-11|p. 73–111.
+>     15 AUGUST 2020, Nemo Journal (last revision draft), O. Yarman, "SEARCH FOR THE OPTIMAL TONE-SYSTEM FOR AN AUTHENTIC TURKISH SOUNDSCAPE: WEIGHING SEVERAL MORE THEORETICAL MODELS ON MAKAM MUSIC AGAINST PITCH-HISTOGRAMS".
+>     http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/WeighingAgainstHistograms_SEARCH_FOR_THE_OPTIMAL_TONE-SYSTEM.pdf
+>     ---CONCOMITANT COMPUTATIONAL MUSICOLOGY SET: http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/searchfortheoptimaltonesystem.zip
+So, I congratulate you and Aura for your deep interest in microtonality and Makam music!
+--[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 01:04, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 : Truth be told, I don't know a lot about Arabic/Turkish/Persian music, but from the sounds of things, 512/507 should be named after "hisar".  Since the "rastma" has the "-ma" suffix, perhaps we should call 512/507 the "hisarma". --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 00:46, 9 December 2020 (UTC)