Talk:Schismatic family: Difference between revisions

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== Move to "Schismic family" ==

-ismatic is non-standard for temperaments -- [[User:VectorGraphics|VectorGraphics]] ([[User talk:VectorGraphics|talk]]) 07:18, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

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:::: AFAIK neither is more correct than the other. E.g. ''Systematic'' & ''systemic'' both exist. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 13:22, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

==~~about Maqamschismic~~==

:::: I'm in favor of the move btw. —[[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 10:44, 23 January 2026 (UTC)

== About maqamschismic ==

assuming that this temperament(Maqamschismic) is meant to explain how to tune Arabic Maqam, and according to the work of Erv Wilson of analysing Jins Rast and Bayati and [http://www.alsiadi.com/Maqam_rast.html]this website, a ''neutral third'' in the Jins Rast might be 27/22 and tuned a comma lower than 5/4, gives us this temperament within 2.3.5.11 subgroup. i didn't know the point of omitting 7 in this temperament, i cannot prove it but it's obvious that Jins Hijaz finds 16/15~15/14 as a augmented unison, and 7/6 as a doubly diminished fourth. Combining both gives us the tempering property exactly identical as Cassandra. And i didn't know the point of 2.3.5.11.13 Maqamschimic too. -[[User:FilterNashi|FilterNashi]] ([[User talk:FilterNashi|talk]]) 13:14, 22 January 2026 (UTC)

ok so the point is tempering 352/351 in somewhere like Jins Rast will give us ''more aesthetically and theoretically correct'' tuning, and I'm agree with that. -[[User:FilterNashi|FilterNashi]] ([[User talk:FilterNashi|talk]]) 16:17, 22 January 2026 (UTC)

:I chose the name "maqamschismic" because it is based on a chain of fifths, is supported by edos approved by maqam theorists, because it is schismic, and because I like the name. ~~At first,~~ I ~~put~~ it as 2.3.5.13 because ~~it's much better there (so much~~ so that Pythagorean tuning is ~~a possible~~ tuning for ~~this temp~~) ~~than at~~ 2.3.5.11(.13). --[[User:~~Eufalesio~~|~~Eufalesio~~]] ([[User talk:~~Eufalesio~~|talk]]) 18:48, ~~22 January~~ 2026 (UTC)

: I chose the name "maqamschismic" because it is based on a chain of fifths, is supported by edos approved by maqam theorists, because it is schismic, and because I like the name. I named it a 2.3.5.13 subgroup because the schismic chain of fifths can be very easily be extended to the 2.3.5.13, so well in fact that Pythagorean tuning can be used. It is where 53edo truly shines. --[[User:Eufalesio|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio|talk]]) 18:59, 22 January 2026 (UTC)

:: Nevermind, I reserved ''maqamschismic'' for the 2.3.5.11.13 subgroup. ''Tridecaschismic'' it is! Either way, maqamschismic is not the best schismic tuning for maqāmāt, but it is the simplest. And for that, I think it deserves a spot.

::: i actually found an extremely similar temperament before the conversation, only difference is i set 11/8 as a free generator, and it found 7 similar to garibaldi at 7-limit. then i noticed tempering out 352/351 tend to get a slightly larger fifth, and that's ''not so compatible'' with the fifth of schismatic close to just. so i gave up. -[[User:FilterNashi|FilterNashi]] ([[User talk:FilterNashi|talk]]) 02:39, 23 January 2026 (UTC)

: I don't see a point for either 2.3.5.11.13 or 2.3.5.13. They are but restrictions of cassandra and they don't get much more accurate than cassandra by removing the 7. —[[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 10:44, 23 January 2026 (UTC)

== Extensions ==

; Grackle

: 77 & 89 and 89 & 101e are possible alternative 13-limit extensions. I think grackle may be presented as no-13. Alternatively, since I don't see the point of grack (12 & 65), I think we can delete it and re-use the name for one of the extensions above.

; Bischismic & kleischismic

: Both should prolly be reworked as no-13 17-limit temps.

; Quintaschis

: This temp has three alternating 11-limit extensions: 277d & 289, 289 & 301, and 301 & 313, with 289 & 301 being the central segment. As such, the 11-limit extension (277d & 289) should not be canon.

: For the alternative 11-limit extension, quintahelenic (301 & 313), the 13-limit extension should not be canon, as it's the other extension that is supported by the higher equal temps – but of course that one is very complex. So, I think it's best to present this extension as no-13.

—[[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 10:26, 8 July 2026 (UTC) (last updated [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 02:55, 25 August 2026 (UTC))

: Grackle's extensions should be nestoria-based for sure, so should canonically go to 19-limit, so see if you can deduce a sure and internally-consistent mapping of 13 based on that of 17 and 19 (investigate canonicity). --[[User:Godtone|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone|talk]]) 04:54, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

:: The mapping for 17 and 19 are very simple and obvious in this case, so they only help to suggest grackle as no-13 (in combination with the fact that the central segment for the 13-limit extension is complex). —[[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 02:55, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

@@ Line 2: / Line 2: @@
 == Move to "Schismic family" ==
 -ismatic is non-standard for temperaments -- [[User:VectorGraphics|VectorGraphics]] ([[User talk:VectorGraphics|talk]]) 07:18, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
@@ Line 14: / Line 13: @@
 :::: AFAIK neither is more correct than the other. E.g. ''Systematic'' & ''systemic'' both exist. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 13:22, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
-==about Maqamschismic==
+:::: I'm in favor of the move btw. —[[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 10:44, 23 January 2026 (UTC)
+== About maqamschismic ==
 assuming that this temperament(Maqamschismic) is meant to explain how to tune Arabic Maqam, and according to the work of Erv Wilson of analysing Jins Rast and Bayati and [http://www.alsiadi.com/Maqam_rast.html]this website, a ''neutral third'' in the Jins Rast might be 27/22 and tuned a comma lower than 5/4, gives us this temperament within 2.3.5.11 subgroup. i didn't know the point of omitting 7 in this temperament, i cannot prove it but it's obvious that Jins Hijaz finds 16/15~15/14 as a augmented unison, and 7/6 as a doubly diminished fourth. Combining both gives us the tempering property exactly identical as Cassandra. And i didn't know the point of 2.3.5.11.13 Maqamschimic too. -[[User:FilterNashi|FilterNashi]] ([[User talk:FilterNashi|talk]]) 13:14, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
 ok so the point is tempering 352/351 in somewhere like Jins Rast will give us ''more aesthetically and theoretically correct'' tuning, and I'm agree with that. -[[User:FilterNashi|FilterNashi]] ([[User talk:FilterNashi|talk]]) 16:17, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
-:I chose the name "maqamschismic" because it is based on a chain of fifths, is supported by edos approved by maqam theorists, because it is schismic, and because I like the name. At first, I put it as 2.3.5.13 because it's much better there (so much so that Pythagorean tuning is a possible tuning for this temp) than at 2.3.5.11(.13). --[[User:Eufalesio|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio|talk]]) 18:48, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
+: I chose the name "maqamschismic" because it is based on a chain of fifths, is supported by edos approved by maqam theorists, because it is schismic, and because I like the name. I named it a 2.3.5.13 subgroup because the schismic chain of fifths can be very easily be extended to the 2.3.5.13, so well in fact that Pythagorean tuning can be used. It is where 53edo truly shines. --[[User:Eufalesio|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio|talk]]) 18:59, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
+:: Nevermind, I reserved ''maqamschismic'' for the 2.3.5.11.13 subgroup. ''Tridecaschismic'' it is! Either way, maqamschismic is not the best schismic tuning for maqāmāt, but it is the simplest. And for that, I think it deserves a spot.
+::: i actually found an extremely similar temperament before the conversation, only difference is i set 11/8 as a free generator, and it found 7 similar to garibaldi at 7-limit. then i noticed tempering out 352/351 tend to get a slightly larger fifth, and that's ''not so compatible'' with the fifth of schismatic close to just. so i gave up. -[[User:FilterNashi|FilterNashi]] ([[User talk:FilterNashi|talk]]) 02:39, 23 January 2026 (UTC)
+: I don't see a point for either 2.3.5.11.13 or 2.3.5.13. They are but restrictions of cassandra and they don't get much more accurate than cassandra by removing the 7. —[[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 10:44, 23 January 2026 (UTC)
+== Extensions ==
+; Grackle
+: 77 & 89 and 89 & 101e are possible alternative 13-limit extensions. I think grackle may be presented as no-13. Alternatively, since I don't see the point of grack (12 & 65), I think we can delete it and re-use the name for one of the extensions above.
+; Bischismic & kleischismic
+: Both should prolly be reworked as no-13 17-limit temps.
+; Quintaschis
+: This temp has three alternating 11-limit extensions: 277d & 289, 289 & 301, and 301 & 313, with 289 & 301 being the central segment. As such, the 11-limit extension (277d & 289) should not be canon.
+: For the alternative 11-limit extension, quintahelenic (301 & 313), the 13-limit extension should not be canon, as it's the other extension that is supported by the higher equal temps – but of course that one is very complex. So, I think it's best to present this extension as no-13.
+—[[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 10:26, 8 July 2026 (UTC) (last updated [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 02:55, 25 August 2026 (UTC))
+: Grackle's extensions should be nestoria-based for sure, so should canonically go to 19-limit, so see if you can deduce a sure and internally-consistent mapping of 13 based on that of 17 and 19 (investigate canonicity). --[[User:Godtone|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone|talk]]) 04:54, 19 July 2026 (UTC)
+:: The mapping for 17 and 19 are very simple and obvious in this case, so they only help to suggest grackle as no-13 (in combination with the fact that the central segment for the 13-limit extension is complex). —[[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 02:55, 25 August 2026 (UTC)