Talk:Val: Difference between revisions

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= ARCHIVED WIKISPACES DISCUSSION BELOW =
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'''All discussion below is archived from the Wikispaces export in its original unaltered form.'''
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== "h12" ==
== IIL's Recent Edit ==
Go get consensus on the new shorthand notation on tuning before changing this page. There are at least 4-5 people who have been using the wart notation specifically as described and we've been doing it this way for months now. It makes no sense to change the whole thing up on a whim.
IIL suggested we also talk about subgroup vals and tempered vals on this page. Some material on these have already been written (Gene called these "svals" and "tvals"). I revamped these two sections and linked to the relevant pages. Also, there is already a fairly universal notation everyone has been using on the various social media groups, where a subgroup val is notated "2.3.7 {{val|12 19 34}}", for instance, so I put that there instead.


And besides, this "h12" thing makes no sense. I like Gene's proposal of just using "12" better.
Tempered monzos and vals are something that I, in particular, have worked with very frequently (I think I made the original "Tmonzo and Tval" page). The notation we have been using is the same as the subgroup val notation, but with "tempered interval names," e.g. for meantone we'd have "P8.P5 {{val|12 7}}" for 12-EDO (where P8 means 2/1 * (81/80)^n and P5 means 3/2 * (81/80)^n). For arbitrary temperaments without names we would typically do basically the same thing you said, i.e. just pick the best JI interval in the preimage and call it that. I adjusted the notation slightly to match the subgroup val one but your basic idea is good.


- '''mbattaglia1''' December 27, 2011, 11:03:52 PM UTC-0800
It would be really nice to get some notification about these suggestions before sweeping changes are made; if Flora Canou hadn't posted on FB I wouldn't have seen this. The mathematical pages have always been a collaborative effort and, for better or worse, every one of the heavy math folks are on Facebook. It would be great if you could join us there: https://www.facebook.com/groups/xenharmonicmath/ [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 10:20, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
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Change it on a whim to what? What, exactly, are we talking about?


- '''genewardsmith''' December 27, 2011, 11:21:48 PM UTC-0800
: Hi Mike! I remember you from seeing you on the FB Xenharmonic group approximately 10 years ago and learning RTT. I ideally don't want to join the group because I don't wish to associate my IRL name with my online handle. We can still talk on the wiki, though. [[User:IlL|Inthar]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 11:31, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
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Carl edited this page and the "Keenan's explanation of Vals" page to remove all instances of the "12p" notation where the "p" wart is taken to represent the patent val, and replaced them with "h12." So instead of 7p & 12p being meantone it's now h7 & h12.


The discussion about all of this took place back on tuning-math in April, including the use of "p" for "patent." Since then, the system has been, a patent val can be specified by a number itself, e.g. 12 & 19, or it can be specified by a number plus "p", e.g. 12p & 19p. Some people have preferred to leave the "p" off and others have preferred to use it. There are a few of us who have chosen to use it. For my part I've been posting to tuning-math with that notation, and teaching people on XA that notation, and using it in XA chat that way for months now, and heard no objections about it.
:: Hi Inthar, good to meet you... Could you at least make a new pseudonymous FB account then with a different name? There is currently some talk on Facebook about how we all feel the edits on here are impossible to keep up with; sometimes there are errors, etc. It would also be much better if we could talk about proposals for notation directly, rather than having you edit a page and then us edit only after, if we see it... There are plenty of users on the FB groups not using their real names... Thank you! [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 18:25, 12 April 2021 (UTC)


If we now want to bar the use of "p" for "patent," which may be a good idea, then let's come up with a sensible alternative before just putting something random up. For example, Carl's proposed alternative of "h12," which I assume you invented years ago to stand for "homomorphism 12," may not be ideal if we're going to also use Herman's postfix letter notation. A better alternative to "12p" would be your proposal of just using "12." Another good alternative is Herman's "12a," which was in his original scheme before Graham made it 12p.
== Consider delete the current page of "Val" and move this page to "Val" ==


- '''mbattaglia1''' December 27, 2011, 11:54:33 PM UTC-0800
@Xenwolf
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My suggestion is not to use "p" unless it is needed, and since so far as I can see it never is needed, we could let it fade quietly away. Then, if someone wanted to talk about the 53-limit, they could.


- '''genewardsmith''' December 28, 2011, 11:50:13 AM UTC-0800
Like [[Monzo]] and [[Monzos and Interval Space]]. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 05:56, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
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: Done. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 06:38, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
The only reason I think something like "p" is useful is because sometimes people just throw the bare number around to mean the best val. So for those people, it's useful to be able to say "7p" and know unambiguously that you're talking about the patent val.
 
If we could get people to stop making the bare number mean the best val, that would be nice. I've never liked it and doubly so because it's dependent on an assumed error metric, and should we ever come up with something besides TE to use then all of the "best vals" might change.
 
- '''mbattaglia1''' December 28, 2011, 11:56:02 AM UTC-0800
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I think we should just ignore it to death. What the hell is someone going to do if they want to talk about the 71-limit, do you know? I think 101 is a safer place to stop than 53.
 
- '''genewardsmith''' December 28, 2011, 12:08:50 PM UTC-0800
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== Silly vals ==
I'd be careful labeling a val "silly", which suggests you know no possible use could ever be found for it. Your example <12 19 28 33| is the sharptone val for 12edo, and if you find the corresponding dwarf scale, it's quite different from the one for the patent val. That's two uses right there.
 
- '''genewardsmith''' September 28, 2011, 09:36:43 AM UTC-0700
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OK, I changed it.
 
- '''mbattaglia1''' September 28, 2011, 10:23:50 AM UTC-0700
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== Definition of a val ==
My problem with your approach is that you start by saying "A val is a map representing how the intervals in an equal temperament..." and as you very well know, this is wrong. Vals do not need to be about equal temperaments at all.
 
- '''genewardsmith''' September 04, 2011, 06:08:38 AM UTC-0700
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Sorry, I meant to change that but forgot. This is a much shorter version of what I originally wrote. I spent so much time on this article and went through so many iterations of it that at like 4 AM I finally gave up and just posted what I had.
 
I changed it to link to an article called "generator" that hasn't been written. Does this look better?
 
- '''mbattaglia1''' September 04, 2011, 05:01:06 PM UTC-0700
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Latest revision as of 18:25, 12 April 2021

This page also contains archived Wikispaces discussion.

IIL's Recent Edit

IIL suggested we also talk about subgroup vals and tempered vals on this page. Some material on these have already been written (Gene called these "svals" and "tvals"). I revamped these two sections and linked to the relevant pages. Also, there is already a fairly universal notation everyone has been using on the various social media groups, where a subgroup val is notated "2.3.7 ⟨12 19 34]", for instance, so I put that there instead.

Tempered monzos and vals are something that I, in particular, have worked with very frequently (I think I made the original "Tmonzo and Tval" page). The notation we have been using is the same as the subgroup val notation, but with "tempered interval names," e.g. for meantone we'd have "P8.P5 ⟨12 7]" for 12-EDO (where P8 means 2/1 * (81/80)^n and P5 means 3/2 * (81/80)^n). For arbitrary temperaments without names we would typically do basically the same thing you said, i.e. just pick the best JI interval in the preimage and call it that. I adjusted the notation slightly to match the subgroup val one but your basic idea is good.

It would be really nice to get some notification about these suggestions before sweeping changes are made; if Flora Canou hadn't posted on FB I wouldn't have seen this. The mathematical pages have always been a collaborative effort and, for better or worse, every one of the heavy math folks are on Facebook. It would be great if you could join us there: https://www.facebook.com/groups/xenharmonicmath/ Mike Battaglia (talk) 10:20, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi Mike! I remember you from seeing you on the FB Xenharmonic group approximately 10 years ago and learning RTT. I ideally don't want to join the group because I don't wish to associate my IRL name with my online handle. We can still talk on the wiki, though. Inthar (talk) 11:31, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Hi Inthar, good to meet you... Could you at least make a new pseudonymous FB account then with a different name? There is currently some talk on Facebook about how we all feel the edits on here are impossible to keep up with; sometimes there are errors, etc. It would also be much better if we could talk about proposals for notation directly, rather than having you edit a page and then us edit only after, if we see it... There are plenty of users on the FB groups not using their real names... Thank you! Mike Battaglia (talk) 18:25, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Consider delete the current page of "Val" and move this page to "Val"

@Xenwolf

Like Monzo and Monzos and Interval Space. FloraC (talk) 05:56, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Done. --Xenwolf (talk) 06:38, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
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