Talk:Carlos Alpha: Difference between revisions

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::: Wow, beautiful work Flora! Above and beyond. Those Carlos Alpha, Beta, and Gamma pages are looking spic and span now. Thanks for looking into it. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 21:24, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

:::: Cheers! [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 07:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

== Merge with valentine ==

Should this be merged with [[Valentine]], which is the same system? —[[User:Hkm|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

: See above — looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

: More specifically, Valentine has 2/1 as the equave, whereas 9edf has 3/2 as the equave, and Carlos Alpha does not use either of these, although it gets close to 9edf. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 00:06, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —[[User:Hkm|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

:: From Carlos’ page: “Since each of the redundant interval pairs is symmetric with respect to the octave, the result is a kind of "over-representation" of this interval. But the octave is a ratio most common to the "strategies" of many instruments, including newer synthesizer architectures. Look at their 16', 8', 4' octaving borrowed from the pipe organ. Most timbres/instrument voices include a similar designation of transpositions up or down by octaves. We have octave possibilities all over the place. So why not, as an experiment, investigate divisions which are not integer based, but allow fractional parts? That will lose all octave symmetry, but if we handle the octaving later, we might be able to find some really interesting equal-step specimens.” —[[User:Hkm|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm|talk]]) 20:20, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

::: Assuming that I found the right page (https://www.wendycarlos.com/resources/pitch.html), this also says "If you try to play through a one octave scale of Alpha, you'd find there are 4 steps to the minor third, 5 steps to the major third, and 9 steps to the perfect (no kidding) fifth, but, or course, no octave. The closest 'attempt' at this is an awful 1170 cent version, which sounds awfully flat. Yet the next step to 1248 cents is even further away, and hopelessly sharp, except for timbres like those in a gamelan ensemble." So you might get a match with an octave eventually, but not in just 1 octave, whereas Valentine expects to repeat notes at every single octave. That small step from around 1170{{c}} to 1200{{c}} (assuming the mode in which it is the last step in the scale) is the small step of Valentine 15L 1s. So the Valentine and Carlos Alpha pages might need to have links to each other, but shouldn't be merged. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 21:32, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

:::: Carlos expects us to "handle the octaving later," bringing this to be the same as Valentine. (Carlos is just describing the generator chain without periods above.) (It is true, though, that Carlos Alpha is a special case of Valentine, or Valentine with additional constraints, specifically the tunings of the generators and the expectation that copies of an an equal-step tuning rather than, for example, MOS scales are the intended approach--so maybe the pages should be kept seperate anyway.) --[[User:Hkm|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm|talk]]) 18:57, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

::::: From my understanding of the description of Carlos Alpha, since it doesn't specify a period and Valentine does, they are not the same. Now what might make sense would be to have an article (Valentine extended family?) that links them together, and keep separate sub-pages for Carlos Alpha, Valentine proper, etc. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 20:33, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

@@ Line 18: / Line 18: @@
 ::: Wow, beautiful work Flora! Above and beyond. Those Carlos Alpha, Beta, and Gamma pages are looking spic and span now. Thanks for looking into it. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 21:24, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
+:::: Cheers! [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 07:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
+== Merge with valentine ==
+Should this be merged with [[Valentine]], which is the same system? —[[User:Hkm|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
+: See above &mdash; looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it.  [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
+: More specifically, Valentine has 2/1 as the equave, whereas 9edf has 3/2 as the equave, and Carlos Alpha does not use either of these, although it gets close to 9edf.  [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 00:06, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
+:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —[[User:Hkm|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
+:: From Carlos’ page: “Since each of the redundant interval pairs is symmetric with respect to the octave, the result is a kind of "over-representation" of this interval. But the octave is a ratio most common to the "strategies" of many instruments, including newer synthesizer architectures. Look at their 16', 8', 4' octaving borrowed from the pipe organ. Most timbres/instrument voices include a similar designation of transpositions up or down by octaves. We have octave possibilities all over the place. So why not, as an experiment, investigate divisions which are not integer based, but allow fractional parts? That will lose all octave symmetry, but if we handle the octaving later, we might be able to find some really interesting equal-step specimens.” —[[User:Hkm|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm|talk]]) 20:20, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
+::: Assuming that I found the right page (https://www.wendycarlos.com/resources/pitch.html), this also says "If you try to play through a one octave scale of Alpha, you'd find there are 4 steps to the minor third, 5 steps to the major third, and 9 steps to the perfect (no kidding) fifth, but, or course, no octave. The closest 'attempt' at this is an awful 1170 cent version, which sounds awfully flat. Yet the next step to 1248 cents is even further away, and hopelessly sharp, except for timbres like those in a gamelan ensemble."  So you might get a match with an octave eventually, but not in just 1 octave, whereas Valentine expects to repeat notes at every single octave.  That small step from around 1170{{c}} to 1200{{c}} (assuming the mode in which it is the last step in the scale) is the small step of Valentine 15L&nbsp;1s.  So the Valentine and Carlos Alpha pages might need to have links to each other, but shouldn't be merged.  [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 21:32, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
+:::: Carlos expects us to "handle the octaving later," bringing this to be the same as Valentine. (Carlos is just describing the generator chain without periods above.) (It is true, though, that Carlos Alpha is a special case of Valentine, or Valentine with additional constraints, specifically the tunings of the generators and the expectation that copies of an an equal-step tuning rather than, for example, MOS scales are the intended approach--so maybe the pages should be kept seperate anyway.) --[[User:Hkm|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm|talk]]) 18:57, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
+::::: From my understanding of the description of Carlos Alpha, since it doesn't specify a period and Valentine does, they are not the same.  Now what might make sense would be to have an article (Valentine extended family?) that links them together, and keep separate sub-pages for Carlos Alpha, Valentine proper, etc.  [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 20:33, 26 April 2025 (UTC)