Father–3 equivalence continuum/Godtone's approach: Difference between revisions
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The ''' | The '''augmented–dicot equivalence continuum''' is a [[equivalence continuum|continuum]] of [[5-limit]] [[regular temperament|temperaments]] which equates a number of [[128/125]]'s (augmented commas) with the dicot comma (or chroma), [[25/24]]. As such, it represents the continuum of all 5-limit temperaments supported by [[3edo]]. | ||
This formulation has a specific | This formulation has a number of specific reasons: | ||
* 128/125 is significantly smaller than 25/24, so that it makes sense to equate some number of 128/125's with 25/24. | |||
* 128/125 is fundamental because it uniquely defines the relatively-very-accurate (strongly form-fitting) representation of the 2.5 subgroup in 3edo. | |||
* 25/24 is fundamental because it gives the trivial way to relate ~5/4 = 1\3 to ~3/2 = 2\3 as 2 generators in 3edo. (By contrast, using 16/15 requires taking the octave-complement of one of the generators. There is also another stronger argument against using 16/15 detailed later in this list.) | |||
* Using 25/24 is also useful because we then know how many intervals between ~6/5 and ~5/4 are guaranteed in a nontrivial tuning; because 25/24 is divided into ''n'' equal parts, the answer is {{nowrap|''n'' - 1}}. Meanwhile, if {{nowrap|''n'' {{=}} ''a''/''b''}} is not an integer (meaning ''b'' > 1), then 25/24 is divided into ''a'' equal parts of {{nowrap|~(128/125)<sup>1/''b''</sup>}}, giving a clear meaning to the numerator and denominator (though more meanings are discussed later). | |||
* Because {{nowrap|25/24 {{=}} ([[25/16]])/([[3/2]])}}, this has the consequence of clearly relating the ''n'' in {{nowrap|(128/125)<sup>n</sup> {{=}} 25/24}} with how many 5/4's are used to reach 3/2 (when octave-reduced): | |||
: * If {{nowrap|''n'' {{=}} 0}}, then it takes no 128/125's to reach 25/24, implying 25/24's size is 0 (so that it's tempered out), meaning that 3/2 is reached via (5/4)<sup>2</sup>. | |||
: * For integer {{nowrap|''n'' > 0}}, we always reach 25/24 via (25/16)/(128/125)<sup>''n''</sup> because of {{nowrap|(128/125)<sup>''n''</sup> ~ 25/24}} by definition, meaning that we reach 3/2 at {{nowrap|3''n'' + 2}} generators of ~5/4, octave-reduced. In other words, for natural ''n'', the way to reach ~3/2 (up to octave equivalence) is ''always'' by flattening ((5/4)<sup>2</sup> =) 25/16 (by ''n'' dieses) into 3/2, where flattening by a diesis is equivalent to multiplying by (5/4)<sup>3</sup> (up to octave-equivalence). | |||
: * Therefore, if ''n'' = ''a''/''b'' is a rational with ''b'' > 1 and ''b'' not a multiple of 3 (so that 3''a''/''b'' + 2 doesn't simplify), we reach prime 3 in a fractional number of generators of ~5/4, which means that the generator is not ~5/4 but rather ''b'' equal divisions of some octave-equivalent of ~5/4 or ~8/5, which as a result means that we reach prime 3 in ''b''(3''a''/''b'' + 2) = 3''a'' + 2''b'' generators, and also means that ~128/125 is split into ''b'' equal parts. | |||
* 16/15 = 25/24 * 128/125, so that tempering out 16/15 (father) is found at ''n'' = -1. The reason it shouldn't be found at ''n'' = 0 instead is because ''n'' = -1 has an absurdly sharp tuning of ~5/4 because of being equated with ~4/3, which breaks the pattern from dicot at ''n'' = 0 having an absurdly flat tuning of ~5/4 because of being equated with ~6/5, and from ''n'' = 0 onwards, ~5/4 is tuned increasingly sharp. This observation is important enough for its own point: | |||
* For ''n'' a nonnegative integer, half-integer or third-integer('''*'''), increasing ''n'' corresponds to increasingly sharp tunings of ~5/4. In the limit, as ''n'' goes to infinity, these all approach ~5/4 = 1\3, corresponding to [[augmented (temperament)|augmented]] temperament. | |||
:: ('''*''' It is conjectured by [[User:Godtone]] that for a given choice of denominator ''b'' in ''n'' = ''a''/''b'', a larger value of ''a'' always corresponds to a sharper tuning of ~5/4, where the sharpness in a pure-octaves tuning is always strictly flat of 1\3, so that (more trivially) taking the limit as ''a'' goes to infinity, ~5/4 = 1\3. The intuition for why we might expect this to be true is that in a pure-2's pure-3's tuning, we are always constraining ~128/125's size to be equal to the appropriate relation to ~25/24, where as 2 and 3 are fixed, the ~5 is the only free variable and depending only on ''n'', with that ''n'' essentially indirectly specifying the degree of tempering.) | |||
* Also, if one is interested in what intervals are present between ~5/4 and ~4/3, it is simple to observe because (16/15)/(25/24) = 128/125, meaning for a nonnegative integer ''n'' there is exactly one more interval between ~5/4 and ~4/3 as between ~6/5 and ~5/4. As there is ''n'' - 1 intervals between ~6/5 and ~5/4 (because of splitting ~25/24 into ''n'' parts), that means that (for nonnegative integer ''n'') there is exactly ''n'' intervals between ~5/4 and ~4/3. More generally, for rational ''n'' = ''a''/''b'', we have ''a'' - 1 intervals between ~6/5 and ~5/4 and because there is another ~128/125 between ~5/4 and ~4/3 we have ''a''/''b'' + 1 = ''a''/''b'' + ''b''/''b'' for the translated coordinates so that we have ''a'' + ''b'' - 1 intervals between ~5/4 and ~4/3, corresponding to splitting ~16/15 into ''a'' + ''b'' equal parts. | |||
Therefore, if ''n'' = ''a''/''b'' is a rational with ''b'' > 1 and ''b'' not a multiple of 3 (so that 3''a''/''b'' + 2 doesn't simplify), we reach prime 3 in a fractional number of generators of ~5/4, which means that the generator is not ~5/4 but rather ''b'' equal divisions of some octave-equivalent of ~5/4 or ~8/5, which as a result means that we reach prime 3 in ''b''(3''a''/''b'' + 2) = 3''a'' + 2''b'' generators, and also means that ~128/125 is split into ''b'' equal parts. | |||
The just value of ''n'' is {{nowrap|log(25/24) / log(128/125) {{=}} 1.72125…}} where {{nowrap|''n'' {{=}} 2}} corresponds to the [[Würschmidt comma]]. | The just value of ''n'' is {{nowrap|log(25/24) / log(128/125) {{=}} 1.72125…}} where {{nowrap|''n'' {{=}} 2}} corresponds to the [[Würschmidt comma]]. | ||
| Line 21: | Line 31: | ||
|- | |- | ||
| −2 | | −2 | ||
| [[Smate]] ({{nowrap|14 & | | [[Smate]] ({{nowrap| 14 & 17c }}) | ||
| [[2048/1875]] | | [[2048/1875]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 11 -1 -4 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| −1 | | −1 | ||
| [[Father]] ({{nowrap|5 & | | [[Father]] ({{nowrap| 5 & 8 }}) | ||
| [[16/15]] | | [[16/15]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 4 -1 -1 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 0 | | 0 | ||
| [[Dicot]] ({{nowrap|7 & | | [[Dicot]] ({{nowrap| 7 & 10 }}) | ||
| [[25/24]] | | [[25/24]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| -3 -1 2 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 1 | | 1 | ||
| [[Magic]] ({{nowrap|19 & | | [[Magic]] ({{nowrap| 19 & 22 }}) | ||
| [[3125/3072]] | | [[3125/3072]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| -10 -1 5 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 2 | | 2 | ||
| [[Würschmidt]] ({{nowrap|31 & | | [[Würschmidt]] ({{nowrap| 31 & 34 }}) | ||
| [[393216/390625]] | | [[393216/390625]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 17 1 -8 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 3 | | 3 | ||
| [[Magus]] ({{nowrap|43 & | | [[Magus]] ({{nowrap| 43 & 46 }}) | ||
| [[50331648/48828125]] | | [[50331648/48828125]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 24 1 -11 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 4 | | 4 | ||
| [[Supermagus]] ({{nowrap|55 & | | [[Supermagus]] ({{nowrap| 55 & 58 }}) | ||
| 6442450944/6103515625 | | 6442450944/6103515625 | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 31 1 -14 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 5 | | 5 | ||
| [[Ultramagus]] ({{nowrap|67 & | | [[Ultramagus]] ({{nowrap| 67 & 70 }}) | ||
| 824633720832/762939453125 | | 824633720832/762939453125 | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 38 1 -17 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| … | | … | ||
| Line 66: | Line 76: | ||
|- | |- | ||
| ∞ | | ∞ | ||
| [[Augmented]] ({{nowrap|12 & | | [[Augmented (temperament)|Augmented]] ({{nowrap| 12 & 15 }}) | ||
| [[128/125]] | | [[128/125]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| -7 0 3 }} | ||
|} | |} | ||
Notice that as ''n'' increases, we temper ~5/4 sharper and ~128/125 flatter (closer to unison), so that as ''n'' goes to infinity, ~5/4 goes to 1\3. | Notice that (as mentioned), as ''n'' increases, we temper ~5/4 sharper and ~128/125 flatter (closer to unison), so that as ''n'' goes to infinity, ~5/4 goes to 1\3. | ||
{| class="wikitable center-1" | {| class="wikitable center-1" | ||
| Line 83: | Line 93: | ||
|- | |- | ||
| -1/2 | | -1/2 | ||
| [[Very low accuracy temperaments#Yo (2c & 3)|Yo]] ({{nowrap|2c & | | [[Very low accuracy temperaments#Yo (2c & 3)|Yo]] ({{nowrap| 2c & 5c }}) | ||
| [[10/9]] | | [[10/9]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 1 -2 1 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 1/2 | | 1/2 | ||
| [[Wesley]] ({{nowrap|26 & | | [[Wesley]] ({{nowrap| 26 & 29 }}) | ||
| [[78125/73728]] | | [[78125/73728]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 13 2 -7 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 3/2 | | 3/2 | ||
| [[Ditonic]] ({{nowrap|50 & | | [[Ditonic]] ({{nowrap| 50 & 53 }}) | ||
| [[1220703125/1207959552]] | | [[1220703125/1207959552]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| -27 -2 13 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 5/2 | | 5/2 | ||
| [[Novamajor]]** ({{nowrap|77 & | | [[Novamajor]]** ({{nowrap| 77 & 80 }}) | ||
| 19791209299968/19073486328125 | | 19791209299968/19073486328125 | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 41 2 -19 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 7/2 | | 7/2 | ||
| {{ | | {{Nowrap| 3 & 101 }} | ||
| (36 digits) | | (36 digits) | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 55 2 -25 }} | ||
|} | |} | ||
'''<nowiki>*</nowiki> This corresponds to the denominator of 2 implying that 3 must be reached in a half-integer number of ~5/4's; the octave-complement of the generator is equal to ~sqrt(5/2). | '''<nowiki>*</nowiki> This corresponds to the denominator of 2 implying that 3 must be reached in a half-integer number of ~5/4's; the octave-complement of the generator is equal to ~sqrt(5/2). | ||
| Line 123: | Line 133: | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 5/3 | | 5/3 | ||
| [[Mutt]] ({{nowrap|84 & | | [[Mutt]] ({{nowrap| 84 & 87 }}) | ||
| [[ | | [[Mutt comma]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| -44 -3 21 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 12/7 | | 12/7 | ||
| {{ | | {{Nowrap| 202 & 205 {{=}} 3 & 612 }} | ||
| [[88817841970012523233890533447265625/88715259606372406434345277125033984|(70 digits)]] | | [[88817841970012523233890533447265625/88715259606372406434345277125033984|(70 digits)]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| -105 -7 50 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 7/4 | | 7/4 | ||
| {{nowrap|3 & | | [[Squarschmidt]] ({{nowrap| 3 & 118 }}) | ||
| [[186773283746309210112/186264514923095703125|(42 digits)]] | | [[186773283746309210112/186264514923095703125|(42 digits)]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 61 4 -29 }} | ||
|} | |} | ||
The simplest of these is [[mutt]] which has interesting properties discussed there. In regards to mutt, the fact that the denominator of ''n'' is a multiple of 3 tells us that it has a 1\3 period because it's contained in 3edo. The fact that the numerator is 5 tells us that 25/24 is split into 5 parts. From {{nowrap|(128/125)<sup>n</sup> {{=}} 25/24}} we can thus deduce that each part is thus equal to ~cbrt(128/125) = (128/125)<sup>1/3</sup>, so that ~5/4 is found at 1\3 minus a third of a diesis, so that ~125/64 is found at thrice that. This observation is more general, leading to consideration of temperaments of third-integer ''n''. | The simplest of these is [[mutt]] which has interesting properties discussed there. In regards to mutt, the fact that the denominator of ''n'' is a multiple of 3 tells us that it has a 1\3 period because it's contained in 3edo. The fact that the numerator is 5 tells us that 25/24 is split into 5 parts. From {{nowrap|(128/125)<sup>n</sup> {{=}} 25/24}} we can thus deduce that each part is thus equal to ~cbrt(128/125) = (128/125)<sup>1/3</sup>, so that ~5/4 is found at 1\3 minus a third of a diesis, so that ~125/64 is found at thrice that. This observation is more general, leading to consideration of temperaments of third-integer ''n''. | ||
The 3 & 118 microtemperament is at ''n'' = 7/4. Its generator is approximately 397{{cent}} so that four generators reaches 5/2, corresponding to the denominator of 4. The number of generators of ~(5/2)<sup>1/4</sup> needed to find prime 3 is thus four times the result of plugging ''n'' = 7/4 into 3''n'' + 2 , which is 3(7/4) + 2 = 21/4 + 8/4 = 29/4, that is, 29 generators. | The 3 & 118 microtemperament [[squarschmidt]] is at ''n'' = 7/4. Its generator is approximately 397{{cent}} so that four generators reaches 5/2, corresponding to the denominator of 4. The number of generators of ~(5/2)<sup>1/4</sup> needed to find prime 3 is thus four times the result of plugging ''n'' = 7/4 into 3''n'' + 2 , which is 3(7/4) + 2 = 21/4 + 8/4 = 29/4, that is, 29 generators. | ||
Finally, the 3 & 612 microtemperament at ''n'' = 12/7 is extremely complex, because to find prime 5, you need 7 times 3(12/7) + 2 = 36/7 + 14/7 = 50/7, that is, 50 generators, and is noted only because of being extremely close to the JIP and being supported by the 5-limit microtemperament [[612edo]]. The denominator | Finally, the 3 & 612 microtemperament at ''n'' = 12/7 is extremely complex, because to find prime 5, you need 7 times 3(12/7) + 2 = 36/7 + 14/7 = 50/7, that is, 50 generators, and is noted only because of being extremely close to the JIP and being supported by the 5-limit microtemperament [[612edo]]. The denominator (7) indicates that 128/125 is split into 7 equal parts, while the numerator indicates that each (128/125)<sup>1/7</sup> part represents (25/24)<sup>1/12</sup>, that is, a twelfth of 25/24. | ||
{| class="wikitable center-1" | {| class="wikitable center-1" | ||
| Line 154: | Line 164: | ||
|- | |- | ||
| -2/3 | | -2/3 | ||
| [[Very low accuracy temperaments#Alteraugment|32/27]] ({{nowrap|3 & 3c}}) {{nowrap| | | [[Very low accuracy temperaments #Alteraugment|32/27]] ({{nowrap| 3 & 3c }}) ({{nowrap| generator {{=}} [[16/15|father comma]] }}) | ||
| 32/27 | | 32/27 | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 5 0 -3 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| -1/3 | | -1/3 | ||
| {{ | | {{Nowrap| 9c & 12c }} ({{nowrap| generator {{=}} negative ~[[25/24|dicot comma]] }}) | ||
| 125/108 | | 125/108 | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| -2 -3 3 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 1/3 | | 1/3 | ||
| {{ | | {{Nowrap| 33c & 36c }} ({{nowrap| generator {{=}} ~[[25/24|dicot comma]] }}) | ||
| 1953125/1769472 | | 1953125/1769472 | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| -16 -3 9 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 2/3 | | 2/3 | ||
| {{ | | {{Nowrap| 48 & 51 }} ({{nowrap| generator {{=}} negative ~[[magic comma]] }}) | ||
| 244140625/226492416 | | 244140625/226492416 | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| -23 -3 12 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 4/3 | | 4/3 | ||
| {{ | | {{Nowrap|72 & 75}} ({{nowrap| generator {{=}} ~[[magic comma]] }}) | ||
| 3814697265625/3710851743744 | | 3814697265625/3710851743744 | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 41 2 -19 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 5/3 | | 5/3 | ||
| [[Mutt]] ({{nowrap|84 & | | [[Mutt]] ({{nowrap|84 & 87}}) ({{nowrap| generator {{=}} ~[[Würschmidt's comma]] }}) | ||
| [[476837158203125/474989023199232| | | [[476837158203125/474989023199232|Mutt comma]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| -44 -3 21 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 7/3 | | 7/3 | ||
| {{nowrap|108 & | | {{nowrap| 108 & 111 }} ({{nowrap| generator {{=}} negative ~[[Würschmidt's comma]] }}) | ||
| [[7782220156096217088/7450580596923828125|(38 digits)]] | | [[7782220156096217088/7450580596923828125|(38 digits)]] | ||
| {{ monzo| 58 3 -27 }} | | {{ monzo| 58 3 -27 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 8/3 | | 8/3 | ||
| {{nowrap|120 & | | {{nowrap| 120 & 123 }} ({{nowrap| generator {{=}} ~[[magus comma]] }}) | ||
| [[996124179980315787264/931322574615478515625|(42 digits)]] | | [[996124179980315787264/931322574615478515625|(42 digits)]] | ||
| {{ monzo| 65 3 -30 }} | | {{ monzo| 65 3 -30 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 10/3 | | 10/3 | ||
| {{ | | {{Nowrap| 147c & 150c {{=}} 291cc & 297cc }} ({{nowrap| generator {{=}} negative ~[[magus comma]] }}) | ||
| [[16320498564797493858533376/14551915228366851806640625|(52 digits)]] | | [[16320498564797493858533376/14551915228366851806640625|(52 digits)]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 79 3 -36 }} | ||
|- | |- | ||
| 11/3 | | 11/3 | ||
| {{ | | {{Nowrap| 156c & 159c }} ({{nowrap| generator {{=}} ~[[6442450944/6103515625|supermagus comma]] }}) | ||
| [[2089023816294079213892272128/1818989403545856475830078125|(56 digits)]] | | [[2089023816294079213892272128/1818989403545856475830078125|(56 digits)]] | ||
| {{ | | {{Monzo| 86 3 -39 }} | ||
|} | |} | ||
Notice the alternating pattern of comma offsets from 1\3, where those commas are themselves in the pattern present in the continuum of integer ''n''. | Notice the alternating pattern of comma offsets from 1\3, where those commas are themselves in the pattern present in the continuum of integer ''n''. | ||