User talk:SAKryukov/Wiki

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Signing and timestamps

Hello SAKryukov,

If you put — [[User:SAKryukov|SA]] ([[User talk:SAKryukov|talk]]), into the input line in the section Signature on your preferences and check the checkbox Treat signature as wikitext (without an automatic link) you configured the wiki software to replace four tildes ~~~~ by it and the timestamp. (read about the special function of tildes in mw: Help:Signatures) --—Xenwolf (talk) 07:43, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Your information is very useful — thank you very much. — SA, 07:54, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
There is one problem though: I want to get different signatures for different contexts — any ideas? — SA, 07:56, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
I think this could be possibly done by user scripts (a skin-independent solution should be placed into User:SAKryukov/common.js). But currently I cannot say exactly how.
Well, I can tell you how. Yes, it's doable, but no fun and can be a good waste of time instead of gain. First, JavaScript executes code accessed through a Preferences text element, and it is executed on the server-side, I can see it by the JavaScript engine behavior — it is impossibly ancient. Not only this is boring, but also the server-side execution is questionable: what if some user mess up things badly? hope there is some reasonable protection... — SA 04:41, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
BTW: Since I have seen somewhere that you call yourself a perfectionist, I think you should take a closer look at the idea(s) behind the Wiki medium. It is not a book, it is not a forum and it is not a mixture of both. Without the claim to completeness, I would summarize my experiences like this today: The focus is on joint constructive work with the emphasis on content. (I think a good resource is a series of interviews with Wiki inventor Ward Cunningham on artima, I link the 5th and the last part here, because the TOC of the whole collection is only here available.) --Xenwolf (talk) 09:13, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, I forgot the link, here it is: The Simplest Thing that Could Possibly Work --Xenwolf (talk) 09:14, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Got it, thank you — SA 15:27, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

On User talk:SAKryukov/common.css, I added a note about self links, did you read it? --Xenwolf (talk) 08:05, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Not yet, reading now, thank you for the note... Aha, well, I know all that, thank you. However, I would be grateful if you could point out the element or the class bearing the padding between the sidebar and its content — I'm lost in this nesting structure and poor signal-to-noise ratio of the code. If it's too boring, please never mind. My style does exactly what I want: 1) indicates the difference between un-logged and logged views, 2) gives me a pleasant look, 3) doesn't mangle anything. :-) — SA 08:18, 27 November 2020 (UTC)


Per-user scripts should be enabled in the wiki, but these are not restricted to pages but take effect on every page. Please read the details in mw: Manual:Interface/JavaScript #Personal scripts. (I'm not totally sure about it right now because we had a wiki upgrade from 1.31 to 1.35 in the last days.) --Xenwolf (talk) 08:53, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! It was just my test.

That's what I thought 🙂. As I found out, user scripts are enabled. See User:Xenwolf/vector.js for a small example. I'm not sure if let is supported now (there was/is an issue) but const definitively is.
--Xenwolf (talk) 09:34, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
PS: signing - even on your user talk - would make things easier. And if you don't like the double hyphen, you may use — or as well, the magic starts only in the tildes. It's also possible to heavily customize you signature.
See mw: Help:Signatures #Customized signatures for a detailed description.
--Xenwolf (talk) 09:34, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you again! I've figured out and done it all. On your talk page, I created two questions under "Quick Question", and now one left, rather a very annoying CSS bug. Anything? SA, 01:43, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Comments, watchlist etc.

I'ts not possible to place comments into the history without changing a page. BTW: Microtonal instruments should be okay now.

Thank you! Still, you know that I'm very picky :-). For compliance with the already existing style, the title "Microtonal instruments" has to have "Instruments" capitalized. :-) — SA 19:57, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
The already most usable style is: capitalization of the first character except for proper names (like that of people), singular form should be preferred. --Xenwolf (talk) 20:35, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Do you mean the capitalization of only the first word of a sentence (plus "proper names")? I would not mind at all, this is well-known to me "Russian" style. I'm afraid other pages are not unified to this style, but it's more important to have sound decision. So, will you confirm: capitalization of only the beginning of the sentence? Thank you. — SA

Some notes:

  • Please stop reworking old topics, start new ones instead! This is what [Add topic] is for. Naming a topic "Quick Questions" is no excuse to abuse it as a "red phone".
  • Please refrain from trying to explain to us how bad our tools are. First of all, come in, look around and make yourself comfortable. Thanks!

--Xenwolf (talk)

Stop reworking old topics? Please clarify: what topic could be new, exactly? Do you mean a modification of "Quick Questions", list part? Then can you suggest the better way and explain what's wrong with the list. I will certainly follow. What about my items with issues themselves, do you acknowledge them? — SA 19:53, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

"Please refrain from trying to explain to us how bad our tools are". Well, I guess I won't anymore. I just thought that you are a person I can trust some ideas, but you are not. Not a problem at all, please don't make conflicts out of nothing. You see, the idea is the idea, it is not a complaint or something which you could perceive negatively, especially when this is the idea not related to anything like your personal fault. No, I'm not asking you to rethink, I simply won't share with you ideas like this one. And don't worry, I generally feel here quite comfortable and grateful for your obviously useful help, moreover, I would like to ask you for some advice sometimes. So, are we good? — SA 19:53, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

No problem. Is Microtonal instruments a good starting point now? Admittedly, the source code (it seems that you - like me - don't use the visual editor) looks a bit dense when it comes to lists, especially when they have nested or long items. But from my POV it's now valid wiki syntax. The extensive inline HTML and sometimes overly complicated links date back to the import from wikispaces, a wiki with very different markup. We solve these problems bit by bit when we find the time and energy to do so or when it is urgently needed. Unfortunately I haven't had time to convert my regex snippets into a script yet. They solve most of the problems, but not the one with the HTML lists, because they are a number too big for regular expressions. --Xenwolf (talk) 20:24, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Totally agree. That's why I want eventually wikify "Instruments". This page is very important for me and for many, but messed up HTML formatting, which renders fixing separate points a waste of time. Agree? This is not a big work, I can do it but later. The only small thing I'm worry about is the possibility of some clash, if you rename something while I'm working at a page. In worst case, it won't be too bad, because I'll have a local copy and save all steps in a separate revision control, but small bit of information could be lost. I wouldn't worry if not noticed some related problem. Let's say, I'm adding a post to some "Talk" page, and someone does the same on the same page, and I get a notification. Several times, I lost my edit. (Any advice, anyway?) — SA
The page Microtonal instruments is already wikified, so what are you talking about? --Xenwolf (talk) 20:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
I just looked at your Regex snippets. They look very useful, and thank you for another idea! Indeed, as my idea of having some additional plugin in Mediawiki rendering is not so feasible right now, it could be a useful and realistic workaround. I do have comprehensive Regex tooling, only the Regex language is notoriously hard to read (easier to right), I have to try it out. I will! — SA 20:42, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Let me ask you about one more thing. How important is filling in Summary before each post into a page, what do you think? There is no a mechanism to enforce or remind it, so I keep forgetting this field most of the time... — SA 20:46, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Just reviewed the new source of "Microtonal instruments", wikified — very nice, thank you a lot! Now I can easily improve separate items or add some. I'm really into instruments, tried quite a few exotic ones, even a theremin, in Moscow, they say, the one built by Lev Termen himself. :-) — SA 21:02, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
I value these comments if they tell more than can be seen from the diff. Enforcement can be switched on in the preferences. --Xenwolf (talk) 20:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Okay then, I'll pay attention for those, thank you for answering. — SA 21:04, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Did you find the checkbox "Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary (or the default undo summary)" in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing? --Xenwolf (talk) 21:18, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Sure, thank you. — SA 22:13, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
As for the topics (and watchlist which I forgot): on discussion (or talk) pages, there is a New topic tab between Edit and History. Using this function makes it much easier to keep track of questions, problems etc. The MediaWiki discussion pages cannot replace an full-fledged forum or the comment function of a real issue tracker. The watchlist is really a page (Special:Watchlist) that shows unseen changes in bold. (It is currently kind of broken: a lot of functional code icons are not showing up. For example, external link decorations, image description links, collapse-expand indicators in recent changes and watchlist, sort direction indicators in some tables, ... hopefully all this will be fixed next week, User:Mike Battaglia and User:Tyler Henthorn, the maintainers, are informed) --Xenwolf (talk) 20:24, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, let me take a look. Will you notify me if and when you have the fix? — SA 20:35, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Skin settings

Looking into you common.css made me think about what skin setting you might be using. I'd guess Vector (which is the default setting). If this is the case, did you already try to enable the Use Legacy Vector checkbox? Another interesting option could be to switch to Timeless skin. This skin has not only the tools always expanded, but also omnipresent search bar and access to personal pages. If you already knew all this, please excuse me for having disturbed you. --Xenwolf (talk) 19:27, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Ah, it wasn't visible to you, right. That's correct, I've done this for the current (non-legacy) vector. That is a small (probably unavoidable) issue: with the present skin technique, user-level styling is skin-specific. After you suggested it, I'll take a look at the Timeless again, but I happened to look through all skins and did not found anything to replace Vector. Please do me a favor: don't apologize for disturbing and other normal working moments. By the way, what do you think if I start removing obsolete parts of the discussions, specifically, posted by you and me in the wiki-related section? I consider them as transient as I rework all the notes into permanent records...
Also, don't you think a sub-page of the Talk page would be a good idea? (A Talk page can also have sub-pages, right?) I feel it would be more convenient for me to separate wiki topics from musical topics. — SA 20:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Aha, looked at Timeless again. Yes, it has some elegance and compliance with the well-known modern designs (vertical menu for user-related items, etc.), but it is too sparse to my taste. By the way, found a couple of low-priority bugs in Vector, would be ready to report them, but probably this is not very useful, as that should rather be addressed to the author of this skin. More generally, even not mentioning bugs, the skins are not 100% pure skins, but they touch semantics a little bit: some elements appear or disappear... — SA 20:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Remaining bugs?

Hello SAKryukov,
Meanwhile the wiki configuration problems are found an fixed, so most bugs should have disappeared now. The only remaining bug I know about is {{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}} returning 2 which contradicts the user list filtered after the same criterion: Special:ActiveUsers. Is there anything else? --Xenwolf (talk) 14:32, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

The NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS bug is in MediaWiki itself (see T140079). --Xenwolf (talk) 14:52, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for the note! It's funny that I recently tried to output most of the statistics with those magic words and noticed 2 NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS. But also, I can see that the style problem with a margin or padding on the right from an external link is still there. — SATuesday 2020 December 1, 15:27 UTC
Show me please an example of such a case. To my knowledge, external links (except those using interwiki syntax) have a background icon. For example Wiki – WikipediaWiki – Wikipedia and Wikipedia: WikiWikipedia: Wiki. In Vector the spacing seems alright to me. --Xenwolf (talk) 20:17, 1 December 2020 (UTC), Same in MinervaNeue and in MonoBook. --Xenwolf (talk) 20:20, 1 December 2020 (UTC), same in Timeless and Legacy Vector. When did you see the "style problem"? --Xenwolf (talk) 20:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Sure, I already reported it before and you've admitted it was a problem. Okay. let's compare next two lines:
link words after inner link
link words after external link
See the difference? Due to this problem, you cannot, for example, put a comma after an external link text (such as "link" in this example), and so on...
— Thank you! — SATuesday 2020 December 1, 20:33 UTC
As already stated, wikis are for collaborating on ideas not platforms for publishing papers or books. The external links are marked with a prominent formatting so that you can see that you are leaving the wiki if you follow them. They are also not checked for resolvability. Try to take the icon after the link text as just another letter, there is nothing that will be done to "fix" this, it really is a feature. --Xenwolf (talk) 21:37, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
If it smells like a bug, swims like a bug... I think even you will understand it's just a mere bug, and not a feature. If you're talking of the feature and not a bug, the visual clue for external links, as opposed to internal ones, is, for example, in Wikipedia. It's something like
a.external::after { content: url('external-link.webp'); } Not too hard, right? — SASunday 2020 December 6, 20:54 UTC
Sorry I'm really not getting what you're after. I just compared the CSS here with that in Wikipedia. No substantial difference. Both use for external links a padding of 13px (for the background-image). But maybe I'm just too stupid? In that case you better report this bug to Tyler Henthorn or Mike Battaglia. --Xenwolf (talk) 21:40, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Interestingly, I can see some confusion here. Naturally, before posting it I look at Wikipedia and saw: no padding (naturally, it's not informative and looks like a mere bug), but an "external link" bitmap instead, which is perfectly clear. Don't we look at different Wikipedia? :-) I did quite recently, about the time of my previous post. Or do you use non-standard browser or non-browser? Okay, look, for example here, look at the external links. No margins/padding, nothing, just a glyph. I also read the discussion on this matter: people tried to introduce a code point "external links" for this purpose, which would provide the best solution, but the committee did no accept it. — SASunday 2020 December 6, 22:08 UTC
Also, I'm trying to segregate our Wiki discussion from the main talk by moving these topics to my sub-page User talk:SAKryukov/Wiki, already moved old content except this section. Would you be comfortable to track the discussion there, if I move this section as well? — SASunday 2020 December 6, 22:12 UTC
Well, move it, no problem. You are using Chrome? --Xenwolf (talk) 22:38, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
I'll do this after posting the present reply. I use many browsers and test everything using them. I mostly use Vivaldi, which I highly recommend. It is equivalent to Chrome/Chromium (Blink+V8), just controls/options are a lot better. Unfortunately, for advanced development Blink+V8 is the only option. Even more unfortunately, all Mozilla stuff is left behind precisely because of audio stuff: it has a critical defect in rendering sounds with Web Audio. Opera and newest Microsoft Edge (not even beginning of 2020, but later Blink+V8 (Chromium) version) work fine, but recently I faced and unforgivable defect: it Edge does not support AV1 codec, which is a present-day top video standard of near-impossible fantastic quality, compression level, and responsiveness. — SASunday 2020 December 6, 23:32 UTC

An incidental wiki syntax note

Hello SA,
for people used to Github or GitLab wikis this may come unexpected: the wiki syntax for internal links is [[some title]] or [[Some title]]. Both addressing the same target page "Some title": the first character of any page title is automatically forced to uppercase. Subsequent inner underscores (or spaces) in internal links are transformed into one space, outer underscores (or spaces) are ignored. So User_talk:SAKryukov is the same as User talk:SAKryukov same as user talk:SAKryukov same as User____talk:SAKryukov same as __user____talk:SAKryukov__. The pipe char within titles (separating the target page on the left, and the text on the right of it) is only needed if the text differs in a significant way from the target page title, for example other title (being [[User talk:SAKryukov|other title]] in wikitext). Sorry that I abused your talk page title, but it's really the best choice: it has a space in it and it's bolded because we are already here (the self-link feature), so the equivalence is obvious without any need to navigate. --Xenwolf (talk) 21:32, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. This is useful, only I did not understand the purpose of your last edit and what would be your advice. From my point of view, it looks like a pleasure of getting rid of underscores. After several attempts to understand what you suggest to change, I simply looked at your signature (and some of my previous links, for that matter and found that it uses a blank space instead of underscore. It makes perfect sense, according to the rules of processing you just explained and the practical merits. So I simply replaced underscores with blank spaces, which is really better. I did not understand why would you add a new section under the same name, and a link to a non-existing page, why you mentioned GitHub and GitLab, and so on. Please, no need to answer these questions unless you think I do something wrong — in essence, everything looks clear anyway.