Talk:Temperament naming: Difference between revisions

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~~= ARCHIVED WIKISPACES DISCUSSION BELOW =~~

~~'''All discussion below is archived from the Wikispaces export in its original unaltered form.'''~~

~~----~~

== ~~Italic continuum names~~ ==

== Who is John Negri ==

~~There are~~ a ~~few things here which haven't been defined formally as regular temperaments:~~

I can not find any info on this man. I hope this is not a joke.

~~contrapyth~~, ~~italic, middletown, calenda, corcovado, janeiro, notre dame, annapolis, esmeralda, hugo, jamestown, kilometric, lampante, marchettus, monocacy, napoli, oriole, potomac, rosada, shenandoah, victoria~~

-- [[User:Sintel|Sintel]] ([[User talk:Sintel|talk]]) 20:43, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

~~These appear~~ to ~~be from Joseph Ruhf's "italic continuum" page~~ here: ~~http~~://~~www~~.~~facebook~~.~~com~~/~~groups/xenharmonic/10151070640989482~~/

: He is real. Please see the first bullet of my reply to Xenwolf here: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Talk:Marvel_temperaments#Relation_between_.22Negripent.22_and_Negri

: --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 17:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

~~Since this page is supposed to only handle the things formally defined as regular temperaments, e.g. tuning systems which exist on some JI group and which temper out a set~~ of ~~commas, we should formally define all of these in those terms as regular temperaments before listing them here.~~

== Origin of "sensi" ==

~~So how are the above temperaments defined? What subgroup are they defined over~~, and ~~what commas do they temper out?~~

I set out to add notes about this whole negripent, negrispet, sensipent, sensisept, dimipent, and dimisept issue (see discussion here: [[Talk:Marvel_temperaments#Relation_between_.22Negripent.22_and_Negri]]), but quickly stumbled across a related problem, which I'll bring up here.

- '''~~mbattaglia1~~''' ~~October 13~~, ~~2012~~, ~~12:09:29 AM UTC-0700~~

The [[Sensipent]] page currently states, "The name 'sensi' is a play on the words 'semi-' and 'sixth.'" But this is not quite compatible with the statement on the [[Temperament names]] page: "Originally semisixths ... contracted to sensi." My concern is that contracting is not a play on words, but rather a form of abbreviation. We should be consistent with this description across these two pages. However, I'm not sure which one of these two things is true, because I have searched the Yahoo Groups! archives, and I find no evidence one way or the other.

~~----~~

~~Alternatively~~, ~~they could all be moved to a separate page~~.

~~- '''genewardsmith''' October 13~~, ~~2012~~, ~~08:53:10 AM UTC-0700~~

The link in the footnote that is currently provided here (to https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_97722.html#97733) positions itself as if it provides evidence toward the contraction, however, it does not. It only provides evidence for part of the sentence the footnote is attached to, and so I suggest that the link to the footnote should be placed at the end of that part of the sentence, not at the end of the whole sentence. Specifically, it only provides evidence for the part that reads "it was decided that 'bi' or 'semi' should be half for periods and 'hemi' should be half for generators", and it does not provide evidence for the remaining part of the sentence, where it says "[semisixths] was contracted to sensi".

~~----~~

I~~'ve just looked~~ at the ~~Italic Continuum document~~, ~~and~~ it provides ~~no explanation of what these things mean~~ or ~~why we~~ should ~~care. I think an Italic Continuum page which did both these things would~~ be ~~a good start~~.

~~- '''genewardsmith''' October 13~~, ~~2012~~, ~~08:57:14 AM UTC-0700~~

To me, it is not clear that semisixths was contracted to sensi, nor that this hemi/semi issue is the reason why.

~~----~~

~~== Some things are listed~~ here ~~which aren~~'~~t regular temperaments ==~~

I note that Gene had been using sensi alongside semisixths for many years before this:

~~These are listed~~:

# 7/5/2004 "sensi/semisixths" https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_10734.html#10734

# 8/2/2004 "sensi (semisixths)" https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_10866#11194

# 8/18/2004 (here he gives "semisixths" as the name for a 5-limit temperament, and "sensi" for a 7-limit extension as well as an 11-limit extension, and "semsi" for a different 11-limit extension; this is to this day documented on Tonalsoft here: http://tonalsoft.com/enc/s/semisixths.aspx) https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_10458#11352

# 9/13/2004 (refers to sensi without reference to semisixths) https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_11511#11513

# 7/4/2005 (gives sensi as the 7-limit extension) https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_12362#12362

# 7/4/2005 "sensi (semisixths)" https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_59247.html#59255

# 10/6/2005 "'sensi' (semisixths)" https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_60752.html#61222

~~contrapyth~~, ~~italic~~, ~~middletown~~, ~~calenda~~, ~~corcovado, janeiro, notre dame, annapolis, esmeralda, hugo, jamestown, kilometric, lampante, marchettus, monocacy, napoli, oriole, potomac, rosada, shenandoah, victoria~~

So I think the relationship between these names may be a bit more complicated than we previously thought. And the true origin of "sensi" might be lost to time, though there does seem to be something going on in bullet 3 above, w/r/t the existence of both "semsi" and "sensi". The only other place "semsi" is ever mentioned is here, on 12/7/2007, by Manuel Op de Coul: https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_16872.html#16872

~~These are all from Joseph Ruhf's "italic" family~~, ~~posted on Facebook here:~~

--[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 20:54, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

~~http~~:~~//www~~.~~facebook~~.~~com/groups/xenharmonic/10151070640989482/~~

: I'm afraid I'm not enlightened on the exact difference between play on words and contraction. To me contraction is a specific type of play on words.

~~These are certainly interesting tunings, but aren~~'t the ~~same things we're talking about when we mention "temperaments" - we're talking specifically about the things on the "regular temperament" page, e~~.g. ~~things which exist in a JI group~~ and ~~temper out a set of commas~~.

: Let's note that the entry of sensi was [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Temperament_names&type=revision&diff=27129&oldid=27130 Gene's own edition] and that should be key evidence for its authenticity, altho the reference I added later only provided partial proof for it. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 00:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

~~I would encourage Joseph to continue to develop his work~~, ~~however! To organize all~~ of ~~this better~~, I'~~m going to move~~ the ~~Italic names over to a new~~ "~~Italic continuum names~~" ~~page~~.

:: A play on words is a pun, or a joke that takes advantage of words with similar sounds or spellings. It is usually somehow amusing, and adds new meaning beyond the meanings of the individual words that were combined. "Sensi", and other mere contractions like it (e.g. "can't", "they're", "semver"), do not meet that definition. A proper example of a play on words would be the name of my friends' company "Cinapse", which combines the words "cinema", "synapse" (and perhaps even the word "apps", too) all together into one word, and this name conveys how their company adds brain-like tooling to movie productions.

:: Thank you for pointing out that Gene added that information himself. Alright, I accept its authenticity as it is. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 01:34, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

- '''~~mbattaglia1~~'~~'' October 13, 2012, 12~~:06:~~05 AM~~ UTC~~-0700~~

::: Alright. By that definition ''sensi'' is probably just a contraction. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 02:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

~~----~~

~~== myna, minor? ==~~

I removed the bit on the Sensipent page for now. Previously I wrote that I wasn't sure whether "sensi" was a play on words or a contraction. I realized that I definitely know it's not a play on words, because that doesn't make any sense. So it's either a contraction, or something else. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 18:12, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Is the ~~fact~~ that "~~myna~~" ~~sounds like "minor" and the myna generator is~~ a ~~minor third just an odd coincidence?~~

- ~~'''Andrew_Heathwaite''' May 31, 2012, 05~~:19:~~39 AM~~ UTC~~-0700~~

I found the same statement on the [[Sensamagic clan]] page and removed it there for now, for the same reason. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 22:18, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

~~----~~

~~I'm not sure I remember well enough to be certain, but that definately rings a bell.~~

~~- '''genewardsmith''' May 31~~, ~~2012~~, 09:24:~~15 AM~~ UTC~~-0700~~

== Proposal to reserve the possibility to write over names based on asteroids, highways/buses, etc. ==

~~----~~

One or two were fine but we have more than a dozen now. These are starting to look like systematic placeholder names. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 10:00, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

~~== Yes! ==~~

: Any name that was just added by one person without ever getting some kind of consensus should be considered a placeholder -[[User:Sintel|Sintel]] ([[User talk:Sintel|talk]]) 17:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

~~Thanks for putting this page together~~, ~~guys; I'm always curious about this!~~

- '''~~Andrew_Heathwaite~~'~~'' May 24, 2012, 06~~:48:~~48 AM~~ UTC~~-0700~~

:: I concur with FloraC's proposal, but I'd like to add if a comma/temperament was named by a single person and there is no strong reasons for a rename and at least one other person likes it (unless that person co-named the comma) it really doesn't seem worth the effort to rename it unless it's a particularly important comma/temperament. --[[User:Godtone|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone|talk]]) 23:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

~~----~~

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-= ARCHIVED WIKISPACES DISCUSSION BELOW =
+{{WSArchiveLink}}
-'''All discussion below is archived from the Wikispaces export in its original unaltered form.'''
-----
-== Italic continuum names ==
+== Who is John Negri ==
-There are a few things here which haven't been defined formally as regular temperaments:
+I can not find any info on this man. I hope this is not a joke.
-contrapyth, italic, middletown, calenda, corcovado, janeiro, notre dame, annapolis, esmeralda, hugo, jamestown, kilometric, lampante, marchettus, monocacy, napoli, oriole, potomac, rosada, shenandoah, victoria
+-- [[User:Sintel|Sintel]] ([[User talk:Sintel|talk]]) 20:43, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
-These appear to be from Joseph Ruhf's "italic continuum" page here: http://www.facebook.com/groups/xenharmonic/10151070640989482/
+: He is real. Please see the first bullet of my reply to Xenwolf here: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Talk:Marvel_temperaments#Relation_between_.22Negripent.22_and_Negri
+: --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 17:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
-Since this page is supposed to only handle the things formally defined as regular temperaments, e.g. tuning systems which exist on some JI group and which temper out a set of commas, we should formally define all of these in those terms as regular temperaments before listing them here.
+== Origin of "sensi" ==
-So how are the above temperaments defined? What subgroup are they defined over, and what commas do they temper out?
+I set out to add notes about this whole negripent, negrispet, sensipent, sensisept, dimipent, and dimisept issue (see discussion here: [[Talk:Marvel_temperaments#Relation_between_.22Negripent.22_and_Negri]]), but quickly stumbled across a related problem, which I'll bring up here.
-- '''mbattaglia1''' October 13, 2012, 12:09:29 AM UTC-0700
+The [[Sensipent]] page currently states, "The name 'sensi' is a play on the words 'semi-' and 'sixth.'" But this is not quite compatible with the statement on the [[Temperament names]] page: "Originally semisixths ... contracted to sensi." My concern is that contracting is not a play on words, but rather a form of abbreviation. We should be consistent with this description across these two pages. However, I'm not sure which one of these two things is true, because I have searched the Yahoo Groups! archives, and I find no evidence one way or the other.
-----
-Alternatively, they could all be moved to a separate page.
-- '''genewardsmith''' October 13, 2012, 08:53:10 AM UTC-0700
+The link in the footnote that is currently provided here (to https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_97722.html#97733) positions itself as if it provides evidence toward the contraction, however, it does not. It only provides evidence for part of the sentence the footnote is attached to, and so I suggest that the link to the footnote should be placed at the end of that part of the sentence, not at the end of the whole sentence. Specifically, it only provides evidence for the part that reads "it was decided that 'bi' or 'semi' should be half for periods and 'hemi' should be half for generators", and it does not provide evidence for the remaining part of the sentence, where it says "[semisixths] was contracted to sensi".
-----
-I've just looked at the Italic Continuum document, and it provides no explanation of what these things mean or why we should care. I think an Italic Continuum page which did both these things would be a good start.
-- '''genewardsmith''' October 13, 2012, 08:57:14 AM UTC-0700
+To me, it is not clear that semisixths was contracted to sensi, nor that this hemi/semi issue is the reason why.
-----
-== Some things are listed here which aren't regular temperaments ==
+I note that Gene had been using sensi alongside semisixths for many years before this:
-These are listed:
+# 7/5/2004 "sensi/semisixths" https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_10734.html#10734
+# 8/2/2004 "sensi (semisixths)" https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_10866#11194
+# 8/18/2004 (here he gives "semisixths" as the name for a 5-limit temperament, and "sensi" for a 7-limit extension as well as an 11-limit extension, and "semsi" for a different 11-limit extension; this is to this day documented on Tonalsoft here: http://tonalsoft.com/enc/s/semisixths.aspx) https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_10458#11352
+# 9/13/2004 (refers to sensi without reference to semisixths) https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_11511#11513
+# 7/4/2005 (gives sensi as the 7-limit extension) https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_12362#12362
+# 7/4/2005 "sensi (semisixths)" https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_59247.html#59255
+# 10/6/2005 "'sensi' (semisixths)" https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_60752.html#61222
-contrapyth, italic, middletown, calenda, corcovado, janeiro, notre dame, annapolis, esmeralda, hugo, jamestown, kilometric, lampante, marchettus, monocacy, napoli, oriole, potomac, rosada, shenandoah, victoria
+So I think the relationship between these names may be a bit more complicated than we previously thought. And the true origin of "sensi" might be lost to time, though there does seem to be something going on in bullet 3 above, w/r/t the existence of both "semsi" and "sensi". The only other place "semsi" is ever mentioned is here, on 12/7/2007, by Manuel Op de Coul: https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_16872.html#16872
-These are all from Joseph Ruhf's "italic" family, posted on Facebook here:
+--[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 20:54, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
-http://www.facebook.com/groups/xenharmonic/10151070640989482/
+: I'm afraid I'm not enlightened on the exact difference between play on words and contraction. To me contraction is a specific type of play on words.
-These are certainly interesting tunings, but aren't the same things we're talking about when we mention "temperaments" - we're talking specifically about the things on the "regular temperament" page, e.g. things which exist in a JI group and temper out a set of commas.
+: Let's note that the entry of sensi was [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Temperament_names&type=revision&diff=27129&oldid=27130 Gene's own edition] and that should be key evidence for its authenticity, altho the reference I added later only provided partial proof for it. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 00:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
-I would encourage Joseph to continue to develop his work, however! To organize all of this better, I'm going to move the Italic names over to a new "Italic continuum names" page.
+:: A play on words is a pun, or a joke that takes advantage of words with similar sounds or spellings. It is usually somehow amusing, and adds new meaning beyond the meanings of the individual words that were combined. "Sensi", and other mere contractions like it (e.g. "can't", "they're", "semver"), do not meet that definition. A proper example of a play on words would be the name of my friends' company "Cinapse", which combines the words "cinema", "synapse" (and perhaps even the word "apps", too) all together into one word, and this name conveys how their company adds brain-like tooling to movie productions.
+:: Thank you for pointing out that Gene added that information himself. Alright, I accept its authenticity as it is. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 01:34, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
-- '''mbattaglia1''' October 13, 2012, 12:06:05 AM UTC-0700
+::: Alright. By that definition ''sensi'' is probably just a contraction. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 02:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
-----
-== myna, minor? ==
+I removed the bit on the Sensipent page for now. Previously I wrote that I wasn't sure whether "sensi" was a play on words or a contraction. I realized that I definitely know it's not a play on words, because that doesn't make any sense. So it's either a contraction, or something else. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 18:12, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
-Is the fact that "myna" sounds like "minor" and the myna generator is a minor third just an odd coincidence?
-- '''Andrew_Heathwaite''' May 31, 2012, 05:19:39 AM UTC-0700
+I found the same statement on the [[Sensamagic clan]] page and removed it there for now, for the same reason. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 22:18, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
-----
-I'm not sure I remember well enough to be certain, but that definately rings  a bell.
-- '''genewardsmith''' May 31, 2012, 09:24:15 AM UTC-0700
+== Proposal to reserve the possibility to write over names based on asteroids, highways/buses, etc. ==
-----
+One or two were fine but we have more than a dozen now. These are starting to look like systematic placeholder names. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 10:00, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
-== Yes! ==
+: Any name that was just added by one person without ever getting some kind of consensus should be considered a placeholder -[[User:Sintel|Sintel]] ([[User talk:Sintel|talk]]) 17:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
-Thanks for putting this page together, guys; I'm always curious about this!
-- '''Andrew_Heathwaite''' May 24, 2012, 06:48:48 AM UTC-0700
+:: I concur with FloraC's proposal, but I'd like to add if a comma/temperament was named by a single person and there is no strong reasons for a rename and at least one other person likes it (unless that person co-named the comma) it really doesn't seem worth the effort to rename it unless it's a particularly important comma/temperament. --[[User:Godtone|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone|talk]]) 23:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
-----