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All discussion below is archived from the Wikispaces export in its original unaltered form.
Please do not add any new discussion to this archive page.
All new discussion should go on Talk:16edo.

Comment: Link?


- igliashon May 20, 2017, 01:35:23 PM UTC-0700

Comment: link?


- igliashon May 20, 2017, 01:35:21 PM UTC-0700

Ron Sword's former domain

...seems to be sold. There are some more links in this wiki that point to the fake stuff that is now there.

Does anybody know where Ron moved to?

- xenwolf July 16, 2013, 01:04:38 AM UTC-0700

It seems to be . But that one seems to be unreachable right now...

- hstraub July 19, 2013, 02:35:52 PM UTC-0700

slight grammar edits are cool, but...

....placing dots by the 16-EDO intervals for your preferred dotting scheme on the guitar neck is alpha-male behavior.. Please consider that there are more 16-tone guitars that exist that do not use this "dotting" system than do, as well as guitar scale literature featuring 16. Also, these dots may be confusing for someone who is not a guitarist as they tell nothing else in the interval chart.

- microtonalguitarist July 30, 2011, 01:12:56 AM UTC-0700

The first list of intervals has the subliminal dots next to the intervals 3 5 7 9 11 13 16 - which only applies to guitar not to anything else about the interval chart or 16-EDO. It doesn't make much sense except that someone is trying to tell me they prefer this dotting method for guitar- simply the wrong place for it.

- microtonalguitarist August 01, 2011, 05:14:21 AM UTC-0700

I'll delete them, let's see if all agree to this

- xenwolf August 01, 2011, 07:05:50 AM UTC-0700

So, MicrotonalGuitarist, What do you propose with respect to the normative dots guide IN 16-EDO? Is perhaps that do you want a kind of 'apartheid' between "American Hexadecaphony" and "Italian Hexadecaphony"? Because this claim sounds rather "constipated", as in other EDOs no complaints whatsoever about a simple and COHERENT arrangement of dots guide for Strings instruments and their instrumentists (academic, avid seeker or beginner). Is perhaps the inherent and 'subliminal' wish of the great majority of western musicians for dominate ALL the area of music, trying to mold the own Western musical system logy (as is the notation and their other implications) relegating other more profitable and efficient ways of writing and guide music? Maybe that's why I'm always looking discussions (here and another forums threads), sometimes tremendously heated, to the decision of how to ensure the musicality of each tempered system, or just (here it does I do not intrude) and are not do best thing to put at all costs, the conventional notation (and ITS implicances) that apply only to SOME tempered system (or JI). Does this perhaps prove to be a correct view and evolved for each total, over who inquire enough and aware inmediately a better profit through of forms that, it seems, bothers the traditionalists of the "12:60 Kingdom's"?

Apparently this will lead to the 16-EDO becomes to a "red zone" for having 2 criteria of how to perform this 16-EDO and its possible eternal discussions that, maybe, become an unnecesary eternal significance. The people are not so stupid, as to "confused" about a simple distribution of the dots-guide that REFLECTS and pronunciates, in large magnitude, the INHERENT SYMMETRY of the number 16. The "Alpha-male" guy is other person here. Now, it is obvious that have "4 points" in common with 12-EDO, but that's enough to choose the way lazy and cheap!. It's not my fault that you have not noticed before about this detail and you're still convinced that 16 must be plotted with a dot-guide, which "stinks" a lot of twelve-tone fundamentalism. And it is not something, which you think that is my comfort. I just pass on and I emphasize the distinction between a conventional system notable and non-conventional system, at first glance in a guitar or bass. Get the idea?

If you're disturbed by all this and now, with everything explained, still with your excuses that already apply in your methods, there is no choice that you are a stubborn that reflects the attitude of the bloody conquerors, and ferocious inquisitors of the past. I just hope this thread does not interfere in others EDOs.

- Osmiorisbendi August 03, 2011, 02:03:01 AM UTC-0700

Sorry Tutim, I'm not a guitarist, and so my edit was not really thought through.

To annoy someone was not my intention.

I apologize.

- xenwolf August 03, 2011, 02:08:34 AM UTC-0700

Now youre just being ridiculous, the dots don't belong near an interval chart, especially for non-guitar players. They serve no purpose and tell the composer/musician nothing about the temperament. They were put there with "double" dots on the octave point even like a guitar's layout. It's simply wrong to assume that everyone uses your method, I didnt put any dots anywhere did I? No, but you constantly take MY work, MY art, and MY graphics, and deface them and re-upload them with YOUR preferred dots on them. Want to keep this debate going?

- microtonalguitarist August 03, 2011, 06:14:25 AM UTC-0700

You are exaggerating much. I have not put any "graphic" or "art" or "work"of you, don't turns a paranoid. I ONLY took, as a reference, PHOTOS OF GUITARS, GUITARS PHOTOS, nothing more, PHOTOS. Not concerns me what each person theorizes, based on certain scales extracted from EDOs, but the ONLY thing that DISFIGURES here, and much, is that I tend to always see, indifference about HOW to visualize a damn fretboard (which apparently has not been taken into account, as a case study and creativity). Tell me, Why do not you take the worry, as by say it in someway, to put those blessed spots-guide ACCORDING to a SIMPLE and MISERABLE: PATTERN WITH SYMMETRY AXIS, OVER the fretboards? Does it give you too much work to supply something that MANY GUITARISTS are concerned enough?

Therefore, if I see you and NOBODY ELSE could not cares a damn this issue, I look at the full obligation to advocate something that is pretty lacked: Pattern with symmetry axis, NOT my own taste, JUST A F PATTERN WITH SYMMETRICAL AXIS, NOT MY OWN WAY, NOT MY OWN TASTE, JUST A F AND SIMPLY PATTERN WITH SYMMETRICAL AXIS IN THE FRETBOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is perhaps, COMPLEX for UNDERSTANDS?

- Osmiorisbendi August 03, 2011, 06:45:32 PM UTC-0700

Why don't you guys just put a whole section on the page about different dotting systems for 16-equal? You can put the Armodue dotting system, and you can put Ron's system, and some other systems too. It would be cool to learn about what the different dotting systems are, since I'm probably going to get a 16-tone soon.

- mbattaglia1 August 04, 2011, 12:28:22 AM UTC-0700

Good point, Mike :)

Another option is starting a new page and link to it from here and other pages (for example MicrotonalInstruments, microguitar...)

- xenwolf August 04, 2011, 01:29:15 AM UTC-0700

Thanks, Mike. I was thinking the same thing the last night, but doing some that acclair the reasonable Dot-Guide that 'go of the hand' with the introspective theory relative to each EDO, explaining the 'armonicity' that relationates with Keyboard Design, inherent Notation, and the most important, the 'chord in guitar' that coincide with the respective and reliable Dot-Guide.

Now, for expressate that, I aclaim the next (for understand and compare): Why, in 12-EDO the guitar (and others str. fretted instr.) the dot-guide is plotted on the form 3· 5· 7· 9· 12: and its variation procced with the form 3· 5· 7: 10· 12:? The reason is that you transposes the 'piano' to the fretboard, the which reflects very well over the second form. The first form is for adquire more uniformity and consistence that reflects the invertion of its 'speculative ratios (irrational geometric ratios compared wth JI ratios)', but that not loses the reflect of the 'piano'.

And now the same dot-guide adquire sense for 17-EDO, 19-EDO, 29-EDO, 31-EDO, 41-EDO, 43-EDO, 53-EDO and 55-EDO (I not continue beyond, because the hypothetical fretted instruments turns it impossible and inintelligible), with the form of 1/3-tones, 1/5-tones, 1/7-tones and 1/9-tones, Pythagorean or Meantone in this case. Obviously that the same dot-guide can apply to EDO that contains a presence of a interval near to a '4/3' (for the common tuning) like a 22-EDO, 26-EDO, 27-EDO, 33-EDO, i admith that 39-EDO too, 45-EDO, 46-EDO and 50-EDO. But you have that considering that beyond of 24-EDO, the relative theory can apply sometimes in the same EDO, therefore you can considered various kinds of dot-guide for that largest EDOs, visualizing each one with their respective contents.

So, I 'm going with respect to this little discussion here, abording to 16-EDO, that you known more or less, over that treat it: Armodue/Goldsmith/DS3 treat to 16-EDO like a theory relationed about to expandishment of the diatonic scale of 7 steps LLsLLLs to 'Superdiatonic' (Mavila-9) scale of 9 steps LLLsLLLLs, incorporating on this scale relative new Notation and scripture; Goldsmit implements 9 greek letters and the Hexagram (with all their employement); and Armodue implements a numeric notation between 1 to 9 and the Tetragram (with all their employement too). The drama here is, if Goldsmith's 'piano' and Armodue's 'piano' are THE SAME thing, with more reason this should be applied, under the same way, over the fretboard. How? If the 'common piano' show us the consecutive black keys 2-3-2-3-2-3-2-3.., correlationing to 3· 5· 7: 10· 12: and ordened as 3· 5· 7· 9· 12:, 16-EDO legally have to be

3· 5· 7· 9: 12· 14· 16:, ordened (of course) as 3· 5· 7· 9· 11· 13· 16:. Why? Because under this way stays SOLID the aspect relationship between Theory, 'piano 3-4-3-4-3-4-3-4..' and guitar (and tuning), that applies also to 23-EDO, 25-EDO, 39-EDO (very solid here), 41-EDO too, 55-EDO and 57-EDO, everyone like a Alternative 1/3-tone, Alternative 1/5-tone and Alternative 1/7-tone. So therefore, stay it demostrated "my own taste" that here exclamated.

Coming soon, I will make a page that relates the dot-guide, from 5-EDO ~ 57-EDO (aka, like a 1/7-tone of LLLsLLLLs), and, I hope that it acclairs us this important aspect for 'fretted strings instrumentists'. Happy?

- Osmiorisbendi August 04, 2011, 11:00:18 PM UTC-0700

Sure, why not? I get that you think that the symmetric pattern is what's good, and the Armodue symmetric pattern continues that. But it might also be worthwhile to consider a dot pattern at the minor third, the fourth, the fifth, and the major third, which is how 12-equal does it. It all depends on whether you want to build off of what people already know, or find a new symmetric pattern...

- mbattaglia1 August 10, 2011, 02:31:56 PM UTC-0700

Usually my concern when figuring out dot-patterns is to use them as landmarks for important intervals and positions, not necessarily to be symmetric or represent a specific scale. My dot-pattern for 23 is completely insane in a lot of ways, 0-3-6-9-10-13-14-17-20-(23), but it makes sense considering I use two different open tunings (sharp 4ths vs flat 4ths), so I have dots at 9&10 for the two 4ths and dots at 13 and 14 which will be an octave above the next-lowest open string; these two landmarks are of vital importance to me in keeping my bearings. Many of Tutim's dot-patterns wouldn't be any good for me, because they don't mark out the landmarks that I want, but I've got nothing against them. Frankly I think choosing a dot-pattern is a very personal choice, depending on what you want to do with the guitar and what aspect of the tuning you prefer. I can see someone wanting dots in 8-EDO on a 16-EDO guitar, or maybe a Mavila pentatonic, 0-5-7-9-14-(16) or something. Who knows? What's the big deal, anyway? Some people like to paint each fret a different color. We all have our own ways of making these instruments make sense to us.

- igliashon August 10, 2011, 04:50:05 PM UTC-0700

Dear xenharmonic guitarists,

Is it not now time to start a page dedicated only to dotting patterns/systems?

Nobody stated that the xenwiki shouldn't be usable to solve problems of practice.

- xenwolf August 11, 2011, 12:38:01 AM UTC-0700

Do you mean the dots on the keyboard? Or did you already remove the dots under discussion?

- xenwolf August 01, 2011, 12:42:35 AM UTC-0700

Just Intervals

I've added a list of approximate Just intervals for 16-EDO, based on my interpretation of the "most near-Just" non-dyadic sonorities available in the tuning.

- igliashon July 20, 2011, 09:54:46 PM UTC-0700

Armodue translation

Hi! i'm in contact with the Armodue theorizators and gave me the ok for translating contents of their pages.

I try (challenging my bad mastering of english...) just this days.

Fabrizio Fulvio Fausto Fiale

p.s.: I wish to suggest a link to any pieces composed by me in Armodue system. How could I do?

- tetraF September 05, 2010, 01:53:31 AM UTC-0700

I was done the translation, a synopsis for this page. Maybe I have made several grammatical and synthaxis errors, sorry for the poor language mastering.

- tetraF September 08, 2010, 01:32:32 AM UTC-0700

Great! There is quite a large amount of theory there that well deserves attention.

I once started to translate the page about harmony (, only in private. Since you got permission and are obviously better in italian then I, maybe I could put online what I started and you can finish it?

BTW, maybe we should put the armodue stuff on a separate page - the 16edo page is already quite crowded.

- hstraub September 08, 2010, 07:53:52 AM UTC-0700

I was thinking the same things! :-)

For the translation you have begun in private, great! I think you can put it without problem! I think that we could unite the forces and I, with my obvious knowing of italian, start the translations and you could correct the inevitable errors that I will do.

I agree it's better to dedicate a page apart for Armodue Theories, because don't comprehend only the equal temperament.

Hear you soon!

- tetraF September 09, 2010, 12:51:55 AM UTC-0700

Alright, I have put online the stuff I have done so far (phew!). The page "armonia" is nearly complete, except a part of chapter 3 (about Messiaen), and chapter 4 (about Scriabin). I hope I understood everything right - checking and correcting is welcome, of course.

I also moved your summary of Armodue theory from the 16EDO page to a separate page. When I find the time, I will have a closer look at it.

See you!

- hstraub September 10, 2010, 03:43:49 AM UTC-0700

Ok, thank you, I've seen what an huge work you've done! Now, my first contribute to complete this, about the chapter 3. I've specified that is a rough traduction, I'm not so sure I have written in correct english... Soon I will do the 4th. See you!

- tetraF September 12, 2010, 06:39:45 AM UTC-0700

Armodue guitar


Here's an improvisation with an electric guitar in Armodue (16 EDO):


- jeanpierrepoulin February 08, 2010, 01:08:29 PM UTC-0800

You are welcome to put links to your pieces on the page itself! I just did so with this one.

- hstraub February 10, 2010, 08:33:14 AM UTC-0800


- jeanpierrepoulin February 10, 2010, 11:28:58 AM UTC-0800