User talk:Inthar: Difference between revisions

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~~== Minimalist user page ==~~

~~Hi IlL,~~

It would really help others to understand your edits with a '''''few''' words'' of background on [[User:IlL|your user page]]. As I see in [[13edo/Inthar]], your user name "IlL" has a relation to "Inthar"? Best regards --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 08:38, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

I usually go by Inthar now. (IlL is my username on Linguifex (it used to stand for a name) and I retconned it later using a different conlang.) [[User:IlL|IlL]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 17:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

~~: I see, thanks for adding the information. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:17, 25 May 2020 (UTC)~~

~~== Difference between clan and family ==~~

~~Hi Inthar, ~~

I have difficulties to understand the relationship between family and clan. At first I thought it's basically the same, but now I see that there ia a [[Sensamagic clan]] ''and'' a [[Sensamagic family]]. Since you write very actively in all parts of the wiki, I was hoping you might be able to help me in this matter. Thanks in advance! --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 17:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't really know either, since these terms aren't formally defined anywhere on the wiki. But from what I understand they look like synonyms ("the set of rank 2 temperaments that temper out a given comma"). [[User:IlL|IlL]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 17:33, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

: Thanks so far. It seems to me that it would help to establish a place in the wiki where such questions could be asked and answered. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 18:03, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

~~== Do you know the preview function? ==~~

~~Hi Inthar, ~~

Looking on the massive amount of relatively small changes you are doing (for instance on [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=User:IlL/13edo&action=history User:IlL/13edo]), I was wondering if you maybe don't know about the preview function. This function is faster than a complete save and gives you a good feedback (as I know, there is no quality difference in the rendering between the saved version and the preview). But maybe you already know this function and there is an issue with your mobile device that makes it inaccessible to you. If this is the case, I say sorry for bothering.

~~have a great day --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:40, 15 June 2020 (UTC)~~

~~== Managing subpages ==~~

~~Hi Inthar, ~~

~~Managing subpage links can be tedious. There is a wiki function that creates lists of pages with a specific prefix, it can be used to enumerate subpages. ~~

~~The following snippet extracts the pagename from the page it's places in, so this could be used on your user page as well: ~~

~~<nowiki>~~{{~~Special:PrefixIndex/{{FULLPAGENAME}}/}}</nowiki>~~

~~Best regards --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 07:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)~~

~~: Now I found an (in my opinion) better way to use this function:~~

~~: <code><nowiki>{{Special:Prefixindex|prefix={{FULLPAGENAME}}/|hideredirects=1|stripprefix=1}}</nowiki></code>~~

~~: it provides the prefix as an argument and has two optional switches. Maybe this can be helpful for you as well.~~

~~: --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 08:48, 19 June 2020 (UTC)~~

: PS: when looking on [[User:IlL/Best edos for a given subgroup]], I found that we maybe have to few links to [http://x31eq.com/temper/pregular.html Graham Breed's temp finder] in the wiki. 😉

~~== bolded harmonics ==~~

~~Hi Inthar, ~~

I just removed bolded rations that not only me led to confusion (the intention wasn't visible), now I see what the idea is. I'm not arguing pro or con "bolding harmonics" but if you [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Orwell&diff=next&oldid=47242 bolded harmonics] why didn't you write its meaning in the page as well. You will admit that nobody wants to read the history as to understand the contents. Thanks in advance for considering this in future typographic improvements.

~~Best regards --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 11:06, 21 June 2020 (UTC)~~

~~== Degree question ==~~

~~If/when you have the time: would you please have a look on [[Talk:17edo neutral scale]]? Thanks --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 11:36, 10 July 2020 (UTC)~~

~~: I'm sorry, nothing changed from my POV. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:31, 10 July 2020 (UTC)~~

~~:: Finally got it. Please have another look on the page to ensure I explained it correctly. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:41, 10 July 2020 (UTC)~~

~~== Quartismic EDOs ==~~

Okay, Inthar, now that I know that EDOs that temper out the quartisma have to be a sum of various multiples of 24, 46, and 159, I think the first possible quartismic EDO on the list after 159edo is 229edo, the next would be 253edo, and after that would be 275edo and 277edo, then 321edo and 325edo... Wow... I hope we can confirm all this... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:42, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

~~:BTW, 22 also seems to be a quartismic edo. (It's 46 - 24.) [[User:IlL|IlL]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 04:45, 7 September 2020 (UTC)~~

:: So you can use differences between the defining EDOs for this as well... What's more, the patent vals of 22edo confirm your finding... Nice... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:54, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

:: With that in mind, I'm guessing that we can expect 48edo, 50edo, 70edo, 72edo, 92edo and 96edo to also be quartismic EDOs, right? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 05:06, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

~~:: Wait... 50edo doesn't temper out the quartisma in its patent vals despite being (4*24 - 46), I just checked... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 05:06, 7 September 2020 (UTC)~~

:: However, I do notice that 46 is 22 + 24, so maybe 22edo is actually the independent value we should be using instead of 46... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 05:11, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

:: I see that 70 is 48 + 22, and from the looks of things, 70edo seems to work... Hmm... if 22 is actually the independent number rather than 46, then that means that 68edo should also work as it is 2*22 + 24... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 05:14, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

:: I can confirm from my calculation that 68edo is a very good quartismic EDO... This means that the quartismic EDOs are actually all of the form 22A + 24B + 159C... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 05:20, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

:: Wait... something isn't right... One of the predictions of the 22A + 24B + 159C model for quartismic temperaments is that 94edo would be quartismic- but it isn't... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 05:49, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

~~: Hello. I can help you find all the edos with computer. Here's a sequence of edos that temper out {{monzo|24 -6 0 1 -5}} with progressively lower 11-limit TE error:~~

~~: 21, 22, 43, 46, 68, 89, 111, 159, 202, 224, 270, 494, 742, 764, 966, 1236, 1506, 2159, 2653, 3125, 3395 (6790), 7060, 7554.~~

~~: Here's another sequence with progressively lower 2.3.7.11 TE error:~~

~~: 21, 22, 24, 43, 46, 89, 135 (270), 359, 494, 629, 742, 877, 1012, 1506, 2248, 2383, 2518 (5036), 7419.~~

: BTW I suppose this would be a rank-4 family or a rank-3 2.3.7.11 clan. Unfortunately Graham's temperament finder recently went down (or I'm blocked) so I can't provide further insights. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 06:00, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

:: Perhaps it would help if I gave you the rest of the information I know so far... The ratio of the quartisma is 117440512/117406179. If Inthar is correct, the quartisma is a rank-4 2.3.7.11 comma. I do know that 159edo tempers out this comma based on patent vals. Similarly, between Inthar and I, we have confirmed that 22edo, 24edo, 44edo, 46edo, 66edo, 68edo, 70edo, 88edo, and 90edo by examining and or calculating their patent vals. The quartisma is the difference between five 33/32 quartertones and a 7/6 subminor third, as well as the difference between six 33/32 quartertones and a 77/64 minor third. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 06:35, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

~~:::The fact that patent val + patent val isn't necessarily a patent val might explain why 94edo doesn't work. [[User:IlL|IlL]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 13:50, 7 September 2020 (UTC)~~

:::The JI subgroup is rank (dimension) 4, and the temperament that tempers out the quartisma from JI (and only the quartisma or its multiples) is rank 3. [[User:IlL|IlL]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 13:54, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

:::: Okay, I now have the val for 159edo up to the 19-limit. It is {{val|159 252 369 446 550 588 650 675}}. Using this, and checking against the quartisma's monzo, which, as Flora mentioned, is {{monzo|24 -6 0 1 -5}}. I did the calculations as per the procedure documented on [[monzo]] and got "0" as my result- this is hard confirmation that 159edo tempers out the quartisma. Now we need to do the same thing for other EDOs... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 14:27, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

::::::Aura, I found the problem with 94edo: 3*<24 38 67 83] + <22 35 62 76] = <94 149 263 325] is not the patent val of 94edo which is <94 149 264 325]. You have to be careful when adding up edos to get other edos of the same temperament. The val resulting from adding two vals ''a '' and ''b'' will temper out all commas of ''a''&''b'' temperament, but is not guaranteed to be patent. [[User:IlL|IlL]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 14:29, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-== Minimalist user page ==
+{{archives}}
-Hi IlL,
-It would really help others to understand your edits with a '''''few''' words'' of background on [[User:IlL|your user page]]. As I see in [[13edo/Inthar]], your user name "IlL" has a relation to "Inthar"? Best regards --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 08:38, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
-I usually go by Inthar now. (IlL is my username on Linguifex (it used to stand for a name) and I retconned it later using a different conlang.) [[User:IlL|IlL]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 17:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
-: I see, thanks for adding the information. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:17, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
-== Difference between clan and family ==
-Hi Inthar, <br>
-I have difficulties to understand the relationship between family and clan. At first I thought it's basically the same, but now I see that there ia a [[Sensamagic clan]] ''and'' a [[Sensamagic family]]. Since you write very actively in all parts of the wiki, I was hoping you might be able to help me in this matter. Thanks in advance! <br> --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 17:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
-I don't really know either, since these terms aren't formally defined anywhere on the wiki. But from what I understand they look like synonyms ("the set of rank 2 temperaments that temper out a given comma"). [[User:IlL|IlL]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 17:33, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
-: Thanks so far. It seems to me that it would help to establish a place in the wiki where such questions could be asked and answered. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 18:03, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
-== Do you know the preview function? ==
-Hi Inthar, <br>
-Looking on the massive amount of relatively small changes you are doing (for instance on [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=User:IlL/13edo&action=history User:IlL/13edo]), I was wondering if you maybe don't know about the preview function. This function is faster than a complete save and gives you a good feedback (as I know, there is no quality difference in the rendering between the saved version and the preview). But maybe you already know this function and there is an issue with your mobile device that makes it inaccessible to you. If this is the case, I say sorry for bothering. <br>
-have a great day --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:40, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
-== Managing subpages ==
-Hi Inthar, <br>
-Managing subpage links can be tedious. There is a wiki function that creates lists of pages with a specific prefix, it can be used to enumerate subpages.<br>
-The following snippet extracts the pagename from the page it's places in, so this could be used on your user page as well: <br>
- <nowiki>{{Special:PrefixIndex/{{FULLPAGENAME}}/}}</nowiki>
-Best regards --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 07:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
-: Now I found an (in my opinion) better way to use this function:
-: <code><nowiki>{{Special:Prefixindex|prefix={{FULLPAGENAME}}/|hideredirects=1|stripprefix=1}}</nowiki></code>
-: it provides the prefix as an argument and has two optional switches. Maybe this can be helpful for you as well.
-: --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 08:48, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
-: <small>PS: when looking on [[User:IlL/Best edos for a given subgroup]], I found that we maybe have to few links to [http://x31eq.com/temper/pregular.html Graham Breed's temp finder] in the wiki. </small>😉
-== bolded harmonics ==
-Hi Inthar, <br>
-I just removed bolded rations that not only me led to confusion (the intention wasn't visible), now I see what the idea is. I'm not arguing pro or con "bolding harmonics" but if you [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Orwell&diff=next&oldid=47242 bolded harmonics] why didn't you write its meaning in the page as well. You will admit that nobody wants to read the history as to understand the contents. Thanks in advance for considering this in future typographic improvements. <br>
-Best regards --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 11:06, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
-== Degree question ==
-If/when you have the time: would you please have a look on [[Talk:17edo neutral scale]]? Thanks --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 11:36, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
-: I'm sorry, nothing changed from my POV. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:31, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
-:: Finally got it. Please have another look on the page to ensure I explained it correctly. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:41, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
-== Quartismic EDOs ==
-Okay, Inthar, now that I know that EDOs that temper out the quartisma have to be a sum of various multiples of 24, 46, and 159, I think the first possible quartismic EDO on the list after 159edo is 229edo, the next would be 253edo, and after that would be 275edo and 277edo, then 321edo and 325edo...  Wow... I hope we can confirm all this... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:42, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-:BTW, 22 also seems to be a quartismic edo. (It's 46 - 24.) [[User:IlL|IlL]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 04:45, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-:: So you can use differences between the defining EDOs for this as well...  What's more, the patent vals of 22edo confirm your finding...  Nice... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:54, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-:: With that in mind, I'm guessing that we can expect 48edo, 50edo, 70edo, 72edo, 92edo and 96edo to also be quartismic EDOs, right? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 05:06, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-:: Wait... 50edo doesn't temper out the quartisma in its patent vals despite being (4*24 - 46), I just checked... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 05:06, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-:: However, I do notice that 46 is 22 + 24, so maybe 22edo is actually the independent value we should be using instead of 46... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 05:11, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-:: I see that 70 is 48 + 22, and from the looks of things, 70edo seems to work...  Hmm... if 22 is actually the independent number rather than 46, then that means that 68edo should also work as it is 2*22 + 24... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 05:14, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-:: I can confirm from my calculation that 68edo is a very good quartismic EDO...  This means that the quartismic EDOs are actually all of the form 22A + 24B + 159C... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 05:20, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-:: Wait... something isn't right...  One of the predictions of the 22A + 24B + 159C model for quartismic temperaments is that 94edo would be quartismic- but it isn't... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 05:49, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-: Hello. I can help you find all the edos with computer. Here's a sequence of edos that temper out {{monzo|24 -6 0 1 -5}} with progressively lower 11-limit TE error:
-: 21, 22, 43, 46, 68, 89, 111, 159, 202, 224, 270, 494, 742, 764, 966, 1236, 1506, 2159, 2653, 3125, 3395 (6790), 7060, 7554.
-: Here's another sequence with progressively lower 2.3.7.11 TE error:
-: 21, 22, 24, 43, 46, 89, 135 (270), 359, 494, 629, 742, 877, 1012, 1506, 2248, 2383, 2518 (5036), 7419.
-: BTW I suppose this would be a rank-4 family or a rank-3 2.3.7.11 clan. Unfortunately Graham's temperament finder recently went down (or I'm blocked) so I can't provide further insights. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 06:00, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-:: Perhaps it would help if I gave you the rest of the information I know so far...  The ratio of the quartisma is 117440512/117406179.  If Inthar is correct, the quartisma is a rank-4 2.3.7.11 comma.  I do know that 159edo tempers out this comma based on patent vals.  Similarly, between Inthar and I, we have confirmed that 22edo, 24edo, 44edo, 46edo, 66edo, 68edo, 70edo, 88edo, and 90edo by examining and or calculating their patent vals.  The quartisma is the difference between five 33/32 quartertones and a 7/6 subminor third, as well as the difference between six 33/32 quartertones and a 77/64 minor third. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 06:35, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-:::The fact that patent val + patent val isn't necessarily a patent val might explain why 94edo doesn't work. [[User:IlL|IlL]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 13:50, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-:::The JI subgroup is rank (dimension) 4, and the temperament that tempers out the quartisma from JI (and only the quartisma or its multiples) is rank 3. [[User:IlL|IlL]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 13:54, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-:::: Okay, I now have the val for 159edo up to the 19-limit.  It is {{val|159 252 369 446 550 588 650 675}}.  Using this, and checking against the quartisma's monzo, which, as Flora mentioned, is {{monzo|24 -6 0 1 -5}}.  I did the calculations as per the procedure documented on [[monzo]] and got "0" as my result- this is hard confirmation that 159edo tempers out the quartisma.  Now we need to do the same thing for other EDOs... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 14:27, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
-::::::Aura, I found the problem with 94edo: 3*<24 38 67 83] + <22 35 62 76] = <94 149 263 325] is not the patent val of 94edo which is <94 149 264 325]. You have to be careful when adding up edos to get other edos of the same temperament. The val resulting from adding two vals ''a '' and ''b'' will temper out all commas of ''a''&''b'' temperament, but is not guaranteed to be patent. [[User:IlL|IlL]] ([[User talk:IlL|talk]]) 14:29, 7 September 2020 (UTC)