Talk:Patent val

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306c

c? what? 306edo takks about 306c?z! PiotrGrochowski (talk) 07:07, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

proposal to rename "patent val" to "simple map"

My first concern with “patent” map is that "patent", as an adjective, is unfamiliar to most people, unless it relates to those documents called patents. Calling them "obvious maps" would have been better than "patent maps".

The second concern is that they are not always obvious. If it were, there would be no contention about it. This name suggests a positive value judgment (and dismissive value judgement on other maps) which we think is inappropriate. A name like “patent” or "obvious" map may lead too many people concerned with accurate tuning to accept this map when if they'd known better they may have preferred the map with the most accurate tuning overall, i.e. the “best” map. The classic example of a best map which is not the patent map is 17c at the 5-limit.

These concerns arose in recent public discussion I was involved in, and it was agreed at that time that "naive" was an apt replacement for "patent". But through further discussion, we decided that this would have the opposite problem: where "patent" had excessively positive connotations, "naive" would have had inappropriately negative connotations, and might run the risk of discouraging people from using them despite such maps being relatively good. So we concluded that a word with more neutral connotations was appropriate, and so we're going with "simple". These maps may not always be obvious, but they are always simple to calculate.

The "simple map" sets octaves pure, and then for each other prime harmonic individually, chooses the nearest mapping (the one with least error). That's clearly simple, and it's good, but it's not necessarily best. On the other hand, the best map is not strictly defined yet, but it would have a more elaborate definition, involving a consideration of errors in the ratios between primes, not only in the primes themselves. --Cmloegcmluin (talk) 23:27, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I think your first two points somewhat neutralize each other. If people are unfamiliar with the word, no connotation could arise. Otherwise, if people feel positive with the word, they already know what it means.

To me, patent in the sense of obvious is rather literary, which is suitable for carrying complex or subtle meanings, and effectively stay clear of any connotations. Simple map is a combo of two everyday words and gives me the impression that the concept isn't rigorously defined. If I must choose such a term, it'd be Kite's nearest edomapping. Nearest is more informative than simple at least.

I also oppose using naive as a substitute. That word should be reserved for direct approximation. FloraC (talk) 18:01, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

proposal to rename "generalize patent val" to "uniform map"

My main concern with the term "generalized patent val", or GPV, is that it gets things backwards: it posits the GPV as a type of patent val, when it makes more sense to think of it the other way around, with the patent val as a type of GPV.

The present definition of GPV on the wiki bends over backwards to make its way work, essentially using non-integer EDOs, which are a contradiction in terms. Consider this alternative definition, however, which is more straightforward:

A GPV is any relatively near-just map found by uniformly multiplying the generators for JI (⟨log₂2 log₂3 log₂5 ... ]) by any value before rounding it to integers. For example, choosing 17.1, we find the map 17.1⟨1 1.585 2.322] = ⟨17.1 27.103 39.705] which rounds to ⟨17 27 40]. This is one of the many GPVs for 17-EDO, and every EDO has many possible GPVs. To find a GPV for n-EDO, choose any multiplier that rounds to n; another example for 17-EDO could be 16.9⟨1 1.585 2.322] = ⟨16.9 26.786 39.241] which rounds to ⟨17 27 39].

The key element in this definition is the uniform multiplier, and from it we draw our proposed replacement name for this structure: a uniform map. So the definition could be:

A uniform map is any relatively near-just map found by uniformly multiplying the generators for JI (⟨log₂2 log₂3 log₂5 ... ]) by any value before rounding it to integers. For example, choosing 17.1, we find the map 17.1⟨1 1.585 2.322] = ⟨17.1 27.103 39.705] which rounds to ⟨17 27 40]. This is one of the many uniform maps for 17-EDO, and every EDO has many possible uniform maps. To find a uniform map for n-EDO, choose any multiplier that rounds to n; another example for 17-EDO could be 16.9⟨1 1.585 2.322] = ⟨16.9 26.786 39.241] which rounds to ⟨17 27 39].

Any uniform map whose multiplier is an integer — or "integer uniform map" — is always the patent val (or simple map, per my other proposal above) for the corresponding EDO. And every simple map is also an integer uniform map. These are just two different helpful ways of thinking about the same structure; in contexts pertaining to tuning accuracy, "simple map" works great, and in contexts pertaining to other uniform maps, "integer uniform map" works great. --Cmloegcmluin (talk) 23:27, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

The definition may use some readability improvements but ultimately it's just wordplays. Your alternative definition still involves non-integer edos. Or what else do you think the multiplier is? Imagine a ruler with a varying scale put on the pitch continuum. 17 means that the octave is at the 17th point, implying there are 17 unit intervals between the starting point and the octave, which means 17edo. And therefore 17.1 means 17.1edo. FloraC (talk) 18:01, 26 September 2021 (UTC)