K*N subgroups: Difference between revisions

Wikispaces>genewardsmith
**Imported revision 232591164 - Original comment: **
 
Wikispaces>genewardsmith
**Imported revision 232592028 - Original comment: **
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<h2>IMPORTED REVISION FROM WIKISPACES</h2>
<h2>IMPORTED REVISION FROM WIKISPACES</h2>
This is an imported revision from Wikispaces. The revision metadata is included below for reference:<br>
This is an imported revision from Wikispaces. The revision metadata is included below for reference:<br>
: This revision was by author [[User:genewardsmith|genewardsmith]] and made on <tt>2011-05-28 12:42:22 UTC</tt>.<br>
: This revision was by author [[User:genewardsmith|genewardsmith]] and made on <tt>2011-05-28 12:50:44 UTC</tt>.<br>
: The original revision id was <tt>232591164</tt>.<br>
: The original revision id was <tt>232592028</tt>.<br>
: The revision comment was: <tt></tt><br>
: The revision comment was: <tt></tt><br>
The revision contents are below, presented both in the original Wikispaces Wikitext format, and in HTML exactly as Wikispaces rendered it.<br>
The revision contents are below, presented both in the original Wikispaces Wikitext format, and in HTML exactly as Wikispaces rendered it.<br>
<h4>Original Wikitext content:</h4>
<h4>Original Wikitext content:</h4>
<div style="width:100%; max-height:400pt; overflow:auto; background-color:#f8f9fa; border: 1px solid #eaecf0; padding:0em"><pre style="margin:0px;border:none;background:none;word-wrap:break-word;white-space: pre-wrap ! important" class="old-revision-html">For any [[Harmonic limits|prime limit]] p, EDO N and positive integer k, the p-limit k*N subgroup is the largest [[Just intonation subgroup
<div style="width:100%; max-height:400pt; overflow:auto; background-color:#f8f9fa; border: 1px solid #eaecf0; padding:0em"><pre style="margin:0px;border:none;background:none;word-wrap:break-word;white-space: pre-wrap ! important" class="old-revision-html">For any [[Harmonic limit|prime limit]] p, EDO N and positive integer k, the p-limit k*N subgroup is the largest [[Just intonation subgroups|just intonation subgroup]] of the p-limit on which N-edo and k*N-edo approximate intervals to the same values using the mapping supplied by the [[patent val]] for k*N-edo. This also means they temper out the same commas.  
]] of the p-limit on which N-edo and k*N-edo approximate intervals to the same values using the mapping supplied by the [[patent val]] for k*N-edo. This also means they temper out the same commas.  


A procedure for finding the k*N subgroup is to take enough of the intervals of the p-limit which are mapped to a value divisible by k by the k*N patent val, and add to this set 2 and a basis for the commas of the k*N patent val, and then reduce this to a [[Normal lists|normal interval list]], giving the canonical list of generators for the subgroup. To get "enough" intervals, taking the [[Diamonds|diamond]] of the primes from 2 to p, which is the tonality diamond, usually seems to suffice, and taking the diamond of the diamond seems normally to be more than enough.
A procedure for finding the k*N subgroup is to take enough of the intervals of the p-limit which are mapped to a value divisible by k by the k*N patent val, and add to this set 2 and a basis for the commas of the k*N patent val, and then reduce this to a [[Normal lists|normal interval list]], giving the canonical list of generators for the subgroup. To get "enough" intervals, take the [[Diamonds|diamond]] of the primes from 2 to p, which is the tonality diamond, then the diamond of the diamond, and so forth, until the iterated diamond construction includes a basis for the commas of the k*N patent val.


For example, the 5-limit diamond is 6/5, 5/4, 4/3, 3/2, 8/5, 5/3, 2. The intervals mapped to an even integer by &lt;12 19 28| are 5/4, 8/5 and 2, and a basis for the 5-limit commas is 81/80 and 128/125. If we add 81/80 and 128/125 to the diamond and reduce to the normal list, we get 2.81.5 for the 2*6 subgroup, which is not correct; however the diamond of the diamond (or the diamond of the diamond of the diamond, etc.) gives the correct subgroup, 2.9.5. The diamond of the diamond of the diamond already contains a basis for the commas, and an alternative procedure would be to iterate the diamond construction until this happens.</pre></div>
For example, the 5-limit diamond is 6/5, 5/4, 4/3, 3/2, 8/5, 5/3, 2. The intervals mapped to an even integer by &lt;12 19 28| are 5/4, 8/5 and 2, and a basis for the 5-limit commas is 81/80 and 128/125. If we add 81/80 and 128/125 to the diamond and reduce to the normal list, we get 2.81.5 for the 2*6 subgroup, which is not correct; however the diamond of the diamond (or the diamond of the diamond of the diamond, etc.) gives the correct subgroup, 2.9.5. The diamond of the diamond of the diamond contains a basis for the commas, and therefore the procedure described above would give the correct answer.</pre></div>
<h4>Original HTML content:</h4>
<h4>Original HTML content:</h4>
<div style="width:100%; max-height:400pt; overflow:auto; background-color:#f8f9fa; border: 1px solid #eaecf0; padding:0em"><pre style="margin:0px;border:none;background:none;word-wrap:break-word;width:200%;white-space: pre-wrap ! important" class="old-revision-html">&lt;html&gt;&lt;head&gt;&lt;title&gt;k*N subgroups&lt;/title&gt;&lt;/head&gt;&lt;body&gt;For any &lt;a class="wiki_link" href="/Harmonic%20limits"&gt;prime limit&lt;/a&gt; p, EDO N and positive integer k, the p-limit k*N subgroup is the largest &lt;a class="wiki_link" href="/Just%20intonation%20subgroup"&gt;Just intonation subgroup&lt;/a&gt; of the p-limit on which N-edo and k*N-edo approximate intervals to the same values using the mapping supplied by the &lt;a class="wiki_link" href="/patent%20val"&gt;patent val&lt;/a&gt; for k*N-edo. This also means they temper out the same commas. &lt;br /&gt;
<div style="width:100%; max-height:400pt; overflow:auto; background-color:#f8f9fa; border: 1px solid #eaecf0; padding:0em"><pre style="margin:0px;border:none;background:none;word-wrap:break-word;width:200%;white-space: pre-wrap ! important" class="old-revision-html">&lt;html&gt;&lt;head&gt;&lt;title&gt;k*N subgroups&lt;/title&gt;&lt;/head&gt;&lt;body&gt;For any &lt;a class="wiki_link" href="/Harmonic%20limit"&gt;prime limit&lt;/a&gt; p, EDO N and positive integer k, the p-limit k*N subgroup is the largest &lt;a class="wiki_link" href="/Just%20intonation%20subgroups"&gt;just intonation subgroup&lt;/a&gt; of the p-limit on which N-edo and k*N-edo approximate intervals to the same values using the mapping supplied by the &lt;a class="wiki_link" href="/patent%20val"&gt;patent val&lt;/a&gt; for k*N-edo. This also means they temper out the same commas. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A procedure for finding the k*N subgroup is to take enough of the intervals of the p-limit which are mapped to a value divisible by k by the k*N patent val, and add to this set 2 and a basis for the commas of the k*N patent val, and then reduce this to a &lt;a class="wiki_link" href="/Normal%20lists"&gt;normal interval list&lt;/a&gt;, giving the canonical list of generators for the subgroup. To get &amp;quot;enough&amp;quot; intervals, taking the &lt;a class="wiki_link" href="/Diamonds"&gt;diamond&lt;/a&gt; of the primes from 2 to p, which is the tonality diamond, usually seems to suffice, and taking the diamond of the diamond seems normally to be more than enough.&lt;br /&gt;
A procedure for finding the k*N subgroup is to take enough of the intervals of the p-limit which are mapped to a value divisible by k by the k*N patent val, and add to this set 2 and a basis for the commas of the k*N patent val, and then reduce this to a &lt;a class="wiki_link" href="/Normal%20lists"&gt;normal interval list&lt;/a&gt;, giving the canonical list of generators for the subgroup. To get &amp;quot;enough&amp;quot; intervals, take the &lt;a class="wiki_link" href="/Diamonds"&gt;diamond&lt;/a&gt; of the primes from 2 to p, which is the tonality diamond, then the diamond of the diamond, and so forth, until the iterated diamond construction includes a basis for the commas of the k*N patent val.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For example, the 5-limit diamond is 6/5, 5/4, 4/3, 3/2, 8/5, 5/3, 2. The intervals mapped to an even integer by &amp;lt;12 19 28| are 5/4, 8/5 and 2, and a basis for the 5-limit commas is 81/80 and 128/125. If we add 81/80 and 128/125 to the diamond and reduce to the normal list, we get 2.81.5 for the 2*6 subgroup, which is not correct; however the diamond of the diamond (or the diamond of the diamond of the diamond, etc.) gives the correct subgroup, 2.9.5. The diamond of the diamond of the diamond already contains a basis for the commas, and an alternative procedure would be to iterate the diamond construction until this happens.&lt;/body&gt;&lt;/html&gt;</pre></div>
For example, the 5-limit diamond is 6/5, 5/4, 4/3, 3/2, 8/5, 5/3, 2. The intervals mapped to an even integer by &amp;lt;12 19 28| are 5/4, 8/5 and 2, and a basis for the 5-limit commas is 81/80 and 128/125. If we add 81/80 and 128/125 to the diamond and reduce to the normal list, we get 2.81.5 for the 2*6 subgroup, which is not correct; however the diamond of the diamond (or the diamond of the diamond of the diamond, etc.) gives the correct subgroup, 2.9.5. The diamond of the diamond of the diamond contains a basis for the commas, and therefore the procedure described above would give the correct answer.&lt;/body&gt;&lt;/html&gt;</pre></div>