Talk:Kite's color notation: Difference between revisions

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 : But I don't consider y1 a valid name. I would call 80/81 a descending g1, not a y1. Same for z1, zg1 and sgg1. Considering all the possible 7-note segments of all the possible colors, half of them have no unisons, because the 8ves are less than 1200¢. Some don't even have 2nds, e.g. the central bizogu segment. An 8ve minus the 50/49 comma is a zzgg9 of 1165¢, and a zzgg2 would be a descending rryy-2. My reasoning is that intervals can be either ascending or descending, and also either positive or negative.
+:: To this paragraph specifically: to me a "y1" ought to be the interval such that "y1 * w2 = y2", i.e. the interval which "makes things yo". In that sense, 80/81 is y1, to me. The fact that the interval is descending doesn't change the fact that it functions like a y1, in the same way that the fact that 64/63 is ascending doesn't change the fact that functions like a ru1 (i.e. "makes things ru", "ru1 * w2 = ru2"). The fact y1 it's descending is an important fact though, e.g. it can help you remember that y2 is smaller than w2. --[[User:M-yac|M-yac]] ([[User talk:M-yac|talk]]) 03:47, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 : Ascending positive intervals (includes most ratios with N > D) go up in pitch, and either up the scale (e.g. 9/8 = w2) or stay the same (e.g. g1 or ry1 = 15/14)
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 : Your broader use of the term negative to include descending is mathematically sound. 49/50 is a (positive) zzgg2. It also reduces (eliminates?) invalid color names, which is nice. But negative intervals are different than descending ones, and IMO it's nice to distinguish between them. They feel different. Descending intervals are commonplace and straightforward, but negative intervals only apply to certain JI commas. My narrower usage of negative functions as a warning that interval arithmetic works counter-intuitively. And the concept of descending intervals is well understood and doesn't require a new term like negative. So I think the narrower use of negative is better for pedagogical purposes.
+:: I very much agree with your assessment that just including the word "negative" and not mentioning whether or not the interval is descending could be very misleading. (You writing out those four cases was very helpful!) I've since added an extra line to the output of xen-calc when the interval is descending, e.g. https://www.yacavone.net/xen-calc/?q=49/50. I am still going to keep the old output though, both because of my "how the interval functions" argument above and because of the fact that the "descending" qualifier has no canonical place in the syntax of color notation. Perhaps you could add it? e.g. "dg1" or "degu1" what I currently call "y1"? --[[User:M-yac|M-yac]] ([[User talk:M-yac|talk]]) 03:47, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 : Another objection: I see that xen-calc calls 4/5 a gu negative 3rd. Playing a note and adding a note 5/4 below it makes a yo harmony with a distinctly 5-over sound. If we call that interval a gu negative 3rd, that implies a 5-under sound. Sure, you can deduce from the term negative that the color is inverted, but that's extra mental work. I'd rather say the added note is a yo 3rd below the 1st note than a negative gu 3rd above it.
+:: The old notation is still there for the reasons I gave above, but the output now should make it clear that this interval is primarily a descending yo 3rd: https://www.yacavone.net/xen-calc/?q=4/5 --[[User:M-yac|M-yac]] ([[User talk:M-yac|talk]]) 03:47, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 : As I've said elsewhere, I'm the inventor of color notation, but I'm not a dictator. I welcome debate on this matter. :) --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 09:36, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 : Looking over the new formulas [https://gist.github.com/m-yac/2236a03dd9fe89a992477fbcbc63746c here], shouldn't "Y = magnitude([0 2(S-X) d e ...>)" be "Y = magnitude([0 2(S-X) c d e ...>)"? And shouldn't the formula for a end with "+ C"? --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 09:51, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
+:: Oh yes, good catch on both! I've updated the derivation. --[[User:M-yac|M-yac]] ([[User talk:M-yac|talk]]) 03:47, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 : Seeing the xen-calc output, Praveen and I decided that large and small should definitely be abbreviated la- and sa- not only in temperament names, but in all interval names. Likewise double and triple should always become bi- and tri-. I updated this page to reflect that. Again, so nice to have an app for this!! :) --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 00:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 : The more I think about calling descending intervals negative, the more strongly I feel that they shouldn't be. Because I have said in the past things like "prime 23 is best mapped to a 5th, not a 4th, because that mapping minimizes negative intervals." That sentence doesn't make any sense with the broader definition of negative. --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 05:06, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
+:: A response to these comments in general: Thank you so much for taking the time to think so deeply about this! It makes me very happy to know my tool has at least one enthusiastic user. Sorry I took so long to reply. I left some specific comments below the paragraphs to which they are most relevant. --[[User:M-yac|M-yac]] ([[User talk:M-yac|talk]]) 03:47, 2 August 2021 (UTC)