Talk:Functional Just System: Difference between revisions

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:: I have to admit that I have issues with the FJS in terms of how it handles intervals in the 2.3.11 subgroup, which is part of why I'm going through the effort of naming these other intervals with [[Alpharabian tuning]]. That said, I myself could use some help from anyone who was involved in the SHEFKHED naming system... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 00:09, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

::: Well, Aura, to my knowledge this is a limitation of the FJS itself. If I remember correctly, FloraC has done research in this... --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 12:53, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

::: I recently read that page too! I think FloraC even suggested another tolerance radius to rename some intervals. Aura maybe that one will work better for your vision of 2.3.11 intervals too? ''[UPD: one can freely set another radius at the [https://misotanni.github.io/fjs/en/calc.html FJS calculator] for it to use that value. In my code it’s available too, but the code itself isn’t ready yet.]'' --[[User:Arseniiv|Arseniiv]] ([[User talk:Arseniiv|talk]]) 15:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

:::: I just tried using another tolerance radius, and no, simply changing the tolerance radius doesn't do the 2.3.11 subgroup justice at all. the FJS calculator still fails to acknowledge 121/64 as a major seventh. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:57, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

::::: In the modification of the FJS I mentioned below, 121/64 is a major seventh - [https://www.yacavone.net/fjs-explorer/?rotPreset=3&fifthSeqPreset=2&expr=121%2F64 check it out]. I just found this example and I'm quite pleased it works. [[User:M-yac|M-yac]] ([[User talk:M-yac|talk]]) 22:49, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

:::: If it is ready, are there changes to make it a bit more accessible by providing an input line for the interval and presetting all other parameters so that only a button click is needed for FJS calculation? Or, even better, an URL schema that the service can be fed directly with the input interval? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:16, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

::::: I am completely lost on this conversation... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:23, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

::::: Xenwolf, I thought to make a console app first, though for now it’s even just a library of functions and classes (like a class for monzo, also a function which returns a filled-in [[Infobox interval]], now it fills in colors as well. Though long color names is hard to write, so I ended up supporting only short names, and then a human may make a long name from it. But maybe I should make a web version for conversions and other calculations which my code allows to do too, yeah. (There’s not much this far, but it also allows to determine if an interval is in a particular JI subgroup. Also converting ratio ↔ ¢ ↔ monzo, of course, and fractional monzos are allowed to, though just one-way — no converting to them from other forms. And initially it all started with tunings, but I made just a regular tuning generator, that’s not particularly useful. Ah, and that second part of the code for sounds and golden ratio is yet untouched for some time. I even have forgotten about it… 🤔)

::::: Ah, also maybe we should somehow ping [[User:Misotanni]], maybe they’ll make changes to the calculator quicker than I’ll make my own thing ready. --[[User:Arseniiv|Arseniiv]] ([[User talk:Arseniiv|talk]]) 15:42, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

::::: Not sure if this is the best spot to post this, but I came up with a way to modify the FJS that gets it to treat 11-limit intervals (/just neutral intervals, more generally) more nicely. I wrote my thoughts up at [[User:M-yac/Neutral Intervals and the FJS]] and I also made an [https://www.yacavone.net/fjs-explorer interactive webpage] for messing around with the parameters to the FJS (e.g. the radius of tolerance). [[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] I think this webpage might be close to what you were looking for in your comment above. [[User:M-yac|M-yac]] ([[User talk:M-yac|talk]]) 22:30, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

::: As of SHEFKHED, that one looks interesting and maybe I would take myself up to trying to implement it, but as at first glance it’s indeed very sophisticated, and as it also names only edostep intervals, that may prove being hard to do. If I’ll end up with some algorithm sounding simpler than at [[SHEFKHED interval names]], I’ll let you know! --[[User:Arseniiv|Arseniiv]] ([[User talk:Arseniiv|talk]]) 15:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

:::: Truth be told, I work with SHEFKHED in part by relating the EDO names back to the corresponding Just Intervals. I don't know if that's any help, but still. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:23, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

:: I fixed my algorithm, now it correctly names [[2048/2187]] as d1, [[2187/1024]] as A8, 1073741824/1162261467 as dd2, [[531441/262144]] as A7, 2/3 as P−5 etc.. My troubles were with correctly calculating octave shift: at first I just took <math>\lfloor \log_2 \mathrm{interval} \rfloor</math>, but that’s wrong because Cb is still the same octave as C, but one octave lower with this definition, and B# would be determined as one octave higher. Now it all works, though I need to make one part look nicer. --[[User:Arseniiv|Arseniiv]] ([[User talk:Arseniiv|talk]]) 15:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

== Radius of tolerance ==

Does anybody have a short explanation why [[65/63]] is being used? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 13:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

: I found "the answer" close to the end of [https://misotanni.github.io/fjs/en/crash.html The FJS Crash Course]:

:: ''This number is the mediant of 33/32 and 32/31, being strictly greater than the former and strictly less than the latter. So 33/32 is accepted as a possible formal comma, allowing the representation of 11/8 as a P4 (if this was rejected, the next nearest approximation would be an absurd d5). But at the same time, 32/31 is rejected, disallowing the just as absurd representation of 31/16 as a P8.''

: I'm not sure I really like it. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 13:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 6: / Line 6: @@
 :: I have to admit that I have issues with the FJS in terms of how it handles intervals in the 2.3.11 subgroup, which is part of why I'm going through the effort of naming these other intervals with [[Alpharabian tuning]].  That said, I myself could use some help from anyone who was involved in the SHEFKHED naming system... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 00:09, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
+::: Well, Aura, to my knowledge this is a limitation of the FJS itself. If I remember correctly, FloraC has done research in this... --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 12:53, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
+::: I recently read that page too! I think FloraC even suggested another tolerance radius to rename some intervals. Aura maybe that one will work better for your vision of 2.3.11 intervals too? ''[UPD: one can freely set another radius at the [https://misotanni.github.io/fjs/en/calc.html FJS calculator] for it to use that value. In my code it’s available too, but the code itself isn’t ready yet.]'' --[[User:Arseniiv|Arseniiv]] ([[User talk:Arseniiv|talk]]) 15:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
+:::: I just tried using another tolerance radius, and no, simply changing the tolerance radius doesn't do the 2.3.11 subgroup justice at all.  the FJS calculator still fails to acknowledge 121/64 as a major seventh. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:57, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
+::::: In the modification of the FJS I mentioned below, 121/64 is a major seventh - [https://www.yacavone.net/fjs-explorer/?rotPreset=3&fifthSeqPreset=2&expr=121%2F64 check it out]. I just found this example and I'm quite pleased it works. [[User:M-yac|M-yac]] ([[User talk:M-yac|talk]]) 22:49, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
+:::: If it is ready, are there changes to make it a bit more accessible by providing an input line for the interval and presetting all other parameters so that only a button click is needed for FJS calculation? Or, even better, an URL schema that the service can be fed directly with the input interval? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:16, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
+::::: I am completely lost on this conversation... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:23, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
+::::: Xenwolf, I thought to make a console app first, though for now it’s even just a library of functions and classes (like a class for monzo, also a function which returns a filled-in [[Infobox interval]], now it fills in colors as well. Though long color names is hard to write, so I ended up supporting only short names, and then a human may make a long name from it. But maybe I should make a web version for conversions and other calculations which my code allows to do too, yeah.  (There’s not much this far, but it also allows to determine if an interval is in a particular JI subgroup. Also converting ratio ↔ ¢ ↔ monzo, of course, and fractional monzos are allowed to, though just one-way — no converting to them from other forms. And initially it all started with tunings, but I made just a regular tuning generator, that’s not particularly useful. Ah, and that second part of the code for sounds and golden ratio is yet untouched for some time. I even have forgotten about it… 🤔)
+::::: Ah, also maybe we should somehow ping [[User:Misotanni]], maybe they’ll make changes to the calculator quicker than I’ll make my own thing ready. --[[User:Arseniiv|Arseniiv]] ([[User talk:Arseniiv|talk]]) 15:42, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
+::::: Not sure if this is the best spot to post this, but I came up with a way to modify the FJS that gets it to treat 11-limit intervals (/just neutral intervals, more generally) more nicely. I wrote my thoughts up at [[User:M-yac/Neutral Intervals and the FJS]] and I also made an [https://www.yacavone.net/fjs-explorer interactive webpage] for messing around with the parameters to the FJS (e.g. the radius of tolerance). [[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] I think this webpage might be close to what you were looking for in your comment above. [[User:M-yac|M-yac]] ([[User talk:M-yac|talk]]) 22:30, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
+::: As of SHEFKHED, that one looks interesting and maybe I would take myself up to trying to implement it, but as at first glance it’s indeed very sophisticated, and as it also names only edostep intervals, that may prove being hard to do. If I’ll end up with some algorithm sounding simpler than at [[SHEFKHED interval names]], I’ll let you know! --[[User:Arseniiv|Arseniiv]] ([[User talk:Arseniiv|talk]]) 15:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
+:::: Truth be told, I work with SHEFKHED in part by relating the EDO names back to the corresponding Just Intervals.  I don't know if that's any help, but still. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:23, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
+:: I fixed my algorithm, now it correctly names [[2048/2187]] as d1, [[2187/1024]] as A8, 1073741824/1162261467 as dd2, [[531441/262144]] as A7, 2/3 as P−5 etc.. My troubles were with correctly calculating octave shift: at first I just took <math>\lfloor \log_2 \mathrm{interval} \rfloor</math>, but that’s wrong because Cb is still the same octave as C, but one octave lower with this definition, and B# would be determined as one octave higher. Now it all works, though I need to make one part look nicer. --[[User:Arseniiv|Arseniiv]] ([[User talk:Arseniiv|talk]]) 15:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
+== Radius of tolerance ==
+Does anybody have a short explanation why [[65/63]] is being used? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 13:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
+: I found "the answer" close to the end of [https://misotanni.github.io/fjs/en/crash.html The FJS Crash Course]:
+:: ''This number is the mediant of 33/32 and 32/31, being strictly greater than the former and strictly less than the latter. So 33/32 is accepted as a possible formal comma, allowing the representation of 11/8 as a P4 (if this was rejected, the next nearest approximation would be an absurd d5). But at the same time, 32/31 is rejected, disallowing the just as absurd representation of 31/16 as a P8.''
+: I'm not sure I really like it. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 13:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)