Talk:Small comma: Difference between revisions

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[[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 11:54, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

== Links in general ==

I'd like to limit "sophisticated linking" in favor of usability. I'm not very happy with links of type <code><nowiki>[[A|B]]</nowiki></code> even if A→B or B→A. If there is a good chance that both are equally (or comparable) common, I suggest to use <code><nowiki>[[A]]</nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki>[[B]]</nowiki></code>. And sometimes the numbers are easier to remember than names, especially if names are newly invented, so for me [[64/63]] is easier to remember than [[septimal comma]], and in this special case the ratio is unique which the name isn't. Maybe we should try to discuss this with more people. Here are two cases where the problem is noticeable, and I would like to know more about the ideas others have about their way of linking: 1) [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Small_comma&type=revision&diff=53496&oldid=53464 FloraC "links on names instead of ratios..."] and 2) [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Symbiosma&diff=next&oldid=53473 Xenwolf: "improved apotome link..."]. Maybe we should start an own project for this? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:37, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

: Hmm... that leaves me with questions about commas like the Quartisma, the Nexuma and the Symbiosma... These were all recently named, but the ratios of these commas have too many digits... Also, how unique are the names of these commas? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:43, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

:: I think names and ratios of these three commas will be obscure to most people, so there will be no best option. This probably applies to commas in general (except [[81/80]]=syntonic or meantone comma and [[pythagorean comma]] whose ratio I can remember even worse than my phone number). BTW: in cases like [[7/5]] and [[10/7]], who knows (without cheating!) which of them is Euler's and which Huygens' tritone? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

::: Yes, it's an issue for commas with non-unique names. Shall we stick to a ''simple link priciple'', where we always link directly to the page in these tables? [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 19:27, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

:::: Would it be too confusing if we link to the existing lemma (in changing columns)? Or should we add a "further reading" column which would help us to place links (like ''[[Garischismic temperaments|satin comma]]'') that are only loosely coupled with the comma itself? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 19:41, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

::::: A further-reading column for links sounds rather forced. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 08:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

:::::: Okay, then we'll just let it go. Maybe we or someone else will come up with a really good solution for it later. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 12:56, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

== Proposal to change a few comma names ==

* <s>Countriton → countertriton or cotriton</s>

: <s>"Countriton" sounds like a result of haplology. I, for one, strongly prefer full prefixes. Either countertriton or cotriton would work. </s>

* Moctdel → motel

: "Moctdel" is hard to pronounce. I kinda get that "del" part comes from the grendel temperament (→ Mirkwai clan #Grendel) but I don't see how it's related to moct (millioctave) by any means.

Ideas? [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 14:10, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Update: Nevermind "countriton". It seems it's formed by co + untriton. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 09:56, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

== A new way to name commas in color notation? ==

User Gud2228 recently added Yo-28, Gu-31 and Gu-59 to this page. These are generalizations of the Wa-N format for 3-limit commas. The format is obviously Yo-N = [x, 0, N> and Gu-N = [x, 0, -N>. It can be generalized to other primes, with e.g. Tho-10 meaning [-37 0 0 0 0 10> (Laquinbitho 2nd, about 5¢).

I have mixed feelings about this usage. One the one hand, it's great to see people experimenting and improvising with color notation. That's what happens with actual languages after all. And it is a logical extension of existing usage. But still I'd rather not elevate this usage to an official status. IMO it doesn't add enough utility to justify increasing the complexity of the notation.

So if Yo-28 isn't worth doing, why is a 3-limit name like Wa-29 OK? Because the alternative to Wa-29 is Quadsawa, which obscures the number 29. But Yo-28's alternative is Quadla-sepquadyo, in which "sepquad" clearly indicates the number 28.

So I suggest the name Yo-28 be moved to the first column, next to "oquatonic comma", and the 2nd column have the usual color name, Quadla-sepquadyo. Likewise for Gu-31 and Gu-59. -[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 00:46, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

== Color names for 3-limit commas ==

Color names are mostly a straightforward mapping of the numbers in the monzo to syllables, except that it obscures the 2-count and 3-count. You have to deduce those from the degree, the magnitude, etc. Mostly this works quite well. The degree lets you estimate the size in cents, which is usually more useful information than the number of threes in the ratio.

But it doesn't work well with 3-limit commas. The most important fact about such commas is the 3-count! That tells you which edo it implies, which immediately tells you what you get when you temper out the comma. That's why I devised the "wa format", such as Wa-41, or its short form, w-41.

But here and on the other two comma pages, the short forms have been changed from e.g. "w-41" to "s<sup>6</sup>w5". IMO this isn't a good idea.

One could argue that it's somewhat useful to know that this comma turns out to be a very small 5th. IMO that information belongs on the page dedicated to that comma, where there's room to delve into such details. It doesn't belong in the table of commas.

Also, I don't like seeing the short form removed. It's good to know. It's very useful for equations such as Ly-2 + w-17 = sy2.

--[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 05:42, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 [[User:PiotrGrochowski|PiotrGrochowski]] ([[User talk:PiotrGrochowski|talk]]) 11:54, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
+== Links in general ==
+I'd like to limit "sophisticated linking" in favor of usability. I'm not very happy with links of type <code><nowiki>[[A|B]]</nowiki></code> even if A→B or B→A. If there is a good chance that both are equally (or comparable) common, I suggest to use <code><nowiki>[[A]]</nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki>[[B]]</nowiki></code>. And sometimes the numbers are easier to remember than names, especially if names are newly invented, so for me [[64/63]] is easier to remember than [[septimal comma]], and in this special case the ratio is unique which the name isn't. Maybe we should try to discuss this with more people. Here are two cases where the problem is noticeable, and I would like to know more about the ideas others have about their way of linking: 1) [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Small_comma&type=revision&diff=53496&oldid=53464 FloraC "links on names instead of ratios..."] and 2) [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=Symbiosma&diff=next&oldid=53473 Xenwolf: "improved apotome link..."]. Maybe we should start an own project for this? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:37, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
+: Hmm... that leaves me with questions about commas like the Quartisma, the Nexuma and the Symbiosma...  These were all recently named, but the ratios of these commas have too many digits...  Also, how unique are the names of these commas? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:43, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
+:: I think names and ratios of these three commas will be obscure to most people, so there will be no best option. This probably applies to commas in general (except [[81/80]]=syntonic or meantone comma and [[pythagorean comma]] whose ratio I can remember even worse than my phone number). BTW: in cases like [[7/5]] and [[10/7]], who knows (without cheating!) which of them is Euler's and which Huygens' tritone? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
+::: Yes, it's an issue for commas with non-unique names. Shall we stick to a ''simple link priciple'', where we always link directly to the page in these tables? [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 19:27, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
+:::: Would it be too confusing if we link to the existing lemma (in changing columns)? Or should we add a "further reading" column which would help us to place links (like ''[[Garischismic temperaments|satin comma]]'') that are only loosely coupled with the comma itself? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 19:41, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
+::::: A further-reading column for links sounds rather forced. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 08:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
+:::::: Okay, then we'll just let it go. Maybe we or someone else will come up with a really good solution for it later. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 12:56, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
+== Proposal to change a few comma names ==
+* <s>Countriton → countertriton or cotriton</s>
+: <s>"Countriton" sounds like a result of haplology. I, for one, strongly prefer full prefixes. Either countertriton or cotriton would work. </s>
+* Moctdel → motel
+: "Moctdel" is hard to pronounce. I kinda get that "del" part comes from the grendel temperament (→ Mirkwai clan #Grendel) but I don't see how it's related to moct (millioctave) by any means.
+Ideas? [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 14:10, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
+Update: Nevermind "countriton". It seems it's formed by co + untriton. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 09:56, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
+== A new way to name commas in color notation? ==
+User Gud2228 recently added Yo-28, Gu-31 and Gu-59 to this page. These are generalizations of the Wa-N format for 3-limit commas. The format is obviously Yo-N = [x, 0, N> and Gu-N = [x, 0, -N>. It can be generalized to other primes, with e.g. Tho-10 meaning [-37 0 0 0 0 10> (Laquinbitho 2nd, about 5¢).
+I have mixed feelings about this usage. One the one hand, it's great to see people experimenting and improvising with color notation. That's what happens with actual languages after all. And it is a logical extension of existing usage. But still I'd rather not elevate this usage to an official status. IMO it doesn't add enough utility to justify increasing the complexity of the notation.
+So if Yo-28 isn't worth doing, why is a 3-limit name like Wa-29 OK? Because the alternative to Wa-29 is Quadsawa, which obscures the number 29. But Yo-28's alternative is Quadla-sepquadyo, in which "sepquad" clearly indicates the number 28.
+So I suggest the name Yo-28 be moved to the first column, next to "oquatonic comma", and the 2nd column have the usual color name, Quadla-sepquadyo. Likewise for Gu-31 and Gu-59. -[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 00:46, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
+== Color names for 3-limit commas ==
+Color names are mostly a straightforward mapping of the numbers in the monzo to syllables, except that it obscures the 2-count and 3-count. You have to deduce those from the degree, the magnitude, etc. Mostly this works quite well. The degree lets you estimate the size in cents, which is usually more useful information than the number of threes in the ratio.
+But it doesn't work well with 3-limit commas. The most important fact about such commas is the 3-count! That tells you which edo it implies, which immediately tells you what you get when you temper out the comma. That's why I devised the "wa format", such as Wa-41, or its short form, w-41.
+But here and on the other two comma pages, the short forms have been changed from e.g. "w-41" to "s<sup>6</sup>w5". IMO this isn't a good idea.
+One could argue that it's somewhat useful to know that this comma turns out to be a very small 5th. IMO that information belongs on the page dedicated to that comma, where there's room to delve into such details. It doesn't belong in the table of commas.
+Also, I don't like seeing the short form removed. It's good to know. It's very useful for equations such as Ly-2 + w-17 = sy2.
+--[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 05:42, 18 December 2023 (UTC)