11/10: Difference between revisions

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~~{{Wikipedia| Neutral interval #Second }}~~

'''11/10''', the '''large undecimal neutral second''' or '''undecimal submajor second''', is the simplest submajor second. It is 15 cents sharp of [[12/11]] and 17 cents flat of [[10/9]]. When tuned [[just]] or near-just, it not only has the very exotic melodic role of being almost exactly a third of [[4/3]], leading to [[4000/3993]] being [[Fudging|fudged]], but is also very close in size to a stack consisting of an [[apotome]] and [[33/32]], leading to the [[schisma]] being fudged. Keeping 11/10 distinct from 12/11 ensures that 11/10 bridges [[quartertone]]-based chords with more typical [[5-limit]] and [[Pythagorean tuning|Pythagorean]] chords as a step between notes.

'''11/10''', the '''large undecimal neutral second''' or '''undecimal submajor second''', is ~~an interval favored by {{w|Ptolemy}}~~. ~~Depending on who you ask, this interval, on its own,~~ is ~~either considerably more or considerably less exotic than~~ [[12/11]] ~~or a number~~ of ~~other simple [[11-limit]] intervals. If tempered sharp, however, one could make the argument that it functions a bit more like a narrowed~~ [[10/9]] ~~in light of its usage in such a capacity in systems like~~ [[~~41edo~~]] ~~and [[63edo]] where 11/10 and 10/9 are tempered together due to [[100/99]] being tempered out. Meanwhile, when tuned just~~ or near-just, it not only has the very exotic melodic role of being almost exactly a third of [[4/3]], leading to [[4000/3993]] being ~~tempered out~~, but is also very close in size to a stack consisting of an [[apotome]] and [[33/32]], leading to the [[schisma]] being ~~tempered out~~. ~~Assuming you go with either of the aforementioned options, keeping~~ 11/10 distinct from 12/11 ensures that 11/10 ~~has a way of bridging~~ quartertone-based chords with more typical [[5-limit]] and Pythagorean chords as a ~~sort of~~ step between notes, ~~however, if you temper out~~ [[~~121~~/~~120~~]]~~, expect this ability to vanish~~.

11/10 is the [[octave-reduced]] form of [[11/5]], one of the three most [[concordant]] 11-limit intervals within the entire [[4/1|first two octaves]] along with [[11/4]] and [[11/3]].

== Approximation ==

11/10 is approximated extremely precisely by [[80edo]] and its multiples, with a chain of 80 11/10's failing to close at the octave by a mere third of a cent, close enough that you could theoretically tune an instrument to 80edo by ear using it if you had the patience.

11/10 is approximated extremely precisely by [[80edo]] and its multiples, with a chain of 80 11/10's failing to close at the octave by a mere third of a [[cent]], close enough that you could theoretically tune an instrument to 80edo by ear using it if you had the patience. 11/10 is also approximated within 2 cents by [[22edo]], and is 4c sharp of an octave-reduced stack of 9 generators in [[BPS]].

== Temperaments ==

11/10 ~~may be treated implicitly~~ as a ~~comma in JI~~ scales that ~~for example do not find~~ [[~~11/8~~]] ~~and [[5/4]] above the same degree,~~ but ~~usually it makes much~~ more ~~sense to use it as~~ a generator, ~~such as~~ the ~~aforementioned very~~ accurate ~~strategy of making it a third~~ of [[4/3]], ~~leading to scales that look like~~ [[~~porcupine~~]] ~~but whose harmonies can more accurately be explained in a number~~ of ~~ways depending partially on~~ the ~~exact tempering used~~. ~~If you use a half-octave period you get~~ temperaments in the [[stearnsmic clan]] such as [[pogo]], [[supers]], or [[echidna]], all of which detemper [[100/99]] ~~and~~ [[121/120]] ~~and efficiently~~ and accurately find [[11-limit]] and (no-13's) [[17-limit]] harmonies.

Using 11/10 as a generator tempering out 4000/3993 (as previously mentioned) leads to scales that look like [[porcupine]] but whose harmonies can more accurately be explained. A half-octave period is exceptionally natural when 11/10 is a generator, because by virtue of making the (extremely accurate) approximation of the half-octave by [[99/70]], [[9/7]] is found as the period-complement of the generator. Taking this approach, this gives us temperaments in the [[stearnsmic clan]] such as [[pogo]], [[supers]], or [[echidna]], all of which detemper [[100/99]] ~ [[121/120]] and accurately find [[11-limit]] and (no-13's) [[17-limit]] harmonies. Of these, echidna's mapping of the no-13's 17-limit is the simplest, though all three have the same mapping of the 2.3.7.11/10.17 subgroup so that they only differ on the mapping of 5 and 11. The complexity of 5 and 11 in pogo are used to increase accuracy, being a weak schismic extension. That leaves supers as the odd one out; if you are using an edo tuning for it, 58edo supports echidna while 94edo supports pogo, so it seems to exist as a portable alternate way of finding primes 5 and 11 across systems, unless you use the 152edo tuning, which requires using the second-best mapping of 13 (the 152f [[val]]).

~~=== Exotemperaments ===~~

~~11/10 is tempered out in the [[patent val]]~~s of ~~[[edo]]~~s 1, 2, 3 and 5. ~~An example rank-2 [[exotemperament]] that treats~~ it as a ~~comma to be tempered out is~~ [[~~very low accuracy temperaments #Antietam|antietam~~]].

~~== Trivia ==~~

Using sqrt(11/10) (22/21[[~]]21/20) as a generator leads to the low-complexity [[Nautilus]] with one period to the octave, and if you use two periods to the octave with this generator you get the high-accuracy temperament [[Harry]]; using cbrt(11/10) as a generator leads to [[Escapade]] with one period to the octave.

~~Coincidentally,~~ the ~~interval between~~ the ~~most common tuning frequency (A440)~~ and the ~~second most common AC electrical frequency~~ (~~50 Hz) is exactly 44/5, or three octaves above an~~ 11/10.

== See also ==

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-{{Wikipedia| Neutral interval #Second }}
+'''11/10''', the '''large undecimal neutral second''' or '''undecimal submajor second''', is the simplest submajor second. It is 15 cents sharp of [[12/11]] and 17 cents flat of [[10/9]]. When tuned [[just]] or near-just, it not only has the very exotic melodic role of being almost exactly a third of [[4/3]], leading to [[4000/3993]] being [[Fudging|fudged]], but is also very close in size to a stack consisting of an [[apotome]] and [[33/32]], leading to the [[schisma]] being fudged. Keeping 11/10 distinct from 12/11 ensures that 11/10 bridges [[quartertone]]-based chords with more typical [[5-limit]] and [[Pythagorean tuning|Pythagorean]] chords as a step between notes.
-'''11/10''', the '''large undecimal neutral second''' or '''undecimal submajor second''', is an interval favored by {{w|Ptolemy}}. Depending on who you ask, this interval, on its own, is either considerably more or considerably less exotic than [[12/11]] or a number of other simple [[11-limit]] intervals.  If tempered sharp, however, one could make the argument that it functions a bit more like a narrowed [[10/9]] in light of its usage in such a capacity in systems like [[41edo]] and [[63edo]] where 11/10 and 10/9 are tempered together due to [[100/99]] being tempered out.  Meanwhile, when tuned just or near-just, it not only has the very exotic melodic role of being almost exactly a third of [[4/3]], leading to [[4000/3993]] being tempered out, but is also very close in size to a stack consisting of an [[apotome]] and [[33/32]], leading to the [[schisma]] being tempered out.  Assuming you go with either of the aforementioned options, keeping 11/10 distinct from 12/11 ensures that 11/10 has a way of bridging quartertone-based chords with more typical [[5-limit]] and Pythagorean chords as a sort of step between notes, however, if you temper out [[121/120]], expect this ability to vanish.
+/10 is the [[octave-reduced]] form of [[11/5]], one of the three most [[concordant]] 11-limit intervals within the entire [[4/1|first two octaves]] along with [[11/4]] and [[11/3]].
 == Approximation ==
-/10 is approximated extremely precisely by [[80edo]] and its multiples, with a chain of 80 11/10's failing to close at the octave by a mere third of a cent, close enough that you could theoretically tune an instrument to 80edo by ear using it if you had the patience.
+/10 is approximated extremely precisely by [[80edo]] and its multiples, with a chain of 80 11/10's failing to close at the octave by a mere third of a [[cent]], close enough that you could theoretically tune an instrument to 80edo by ear using it if you had the patience. 11/10 is also approximated within 2 cents by [[22edo]], and is 4c sharp of an octave-reduced stack of 9 generators in [[BPS]].
+{{Interval edo approximation|11/10}}
 == Temperaments ==
-/10 may be treated implicitly as a comma in JI scales that for example do not find [[11/8]] and [[5/4]] above the same degree, but usually it makes much more sense to use it as a generator, such as the aforementioned very accurate strategy of making it a third of [[4/3]], leading to scales that look like [[porcupine]] but whose harmonies can more accurately be explained in a number of ways depending partially on the exact tempering used. If you use a half-octave period you get temperaments in the [[stearnsmic clan]] such as [[pogo]], [[supers]], or [[echidna]], all of which detemper [[100/99]] and [[121/120]] and efficiently and accurately find [[11-limit]] and (no-13's) [[17-limit]] harmonies.
+Using 11/10 as a generator tempering out 4000/3993 (as previously mentioned) leads to scales that look like [[porcupine]] but whose harmonies can more accurately be explained. A half-octave period is exceptionally natural when 11/10 is a generator, because by virtue of making the (extremely accurate) approximation of the half-octave by [[99/70]], [[9/7]] is found as the period-complement of the generator. Taking this approach, this gives us temperaments in the [[stearnsmic clan]] such as [[pogo]], [[supers]], or [[echidna]], all of which detemper [[100/99]] ~ [[121/120]] and accurately find [[11-limit]] and (no-13's) [[17-limit]] harmonies. Of these, echidna's mapping of the no-13's 17-limit is the simplest, though all three have the same mapping of the 2.3.7.11/10.17 subgroup so that they only differ on the mapping of 5 and 11. The complexity of 5 and 11 in pogo are used to increase accuracy, being a weak schismic extension. That leaves supers as the odd one out; if you are using an edo tuning for it, 58edo supports echidna while 94edo supports pogo, so it seems to exist as a portable alternate way of finding primes 5 and 11 across systems, unless you use the 152edo tuning, which requires using the second-best mapping of 13 (the 152f [[val]]).
-=== Exotemperaments ===
-/10 is tempered out in the [[patent val]]s of [[edo]]s 1, 2, 3 and 5. An example rank-2 [[exotemperament]] that treats it as a comma to be tempered out is [[very low accuracy temperaments #Antietam|antietam]].
-== Trivia ==
+Using sqrt(11/10) (22/21[[~]]21/20) as a generator leads to the low-complexity [[Nautilus]] with one period to the octave, and if you use two periods to the octave with this generator you get the high-accuracy temperament [[Harry]]; using cbrt(11/10) as a generator leads to [[Escapade]] with one period to the octave.
-Coincidentally, the interval between the most common tuning frequency (A440) and the second most common AC electrical frequency (50&nbsp;Hz) is exactly 44/5, or three octaves above an 11/10.
 == See also ==