@@ Line 44: / Line 44: @@
 :: Now I'm the creator of colorspeak, but I don't want to be a dictator. So this is just one person's opinion. I like option #1. Because adding sev- only gets us a little ways further down the list of primes. The question then becomes, how do you say 83-over? And 97-over? And what about 101, 103, 107 and 109? Just to cover harmonics 64-128 we would need probably 6 new words. And then there's people using harmonics 128-256, and the temptation is to invent even more words. And then you just *know* someone's going to coma along and start talking about how great prime 257 is! So to recap, we have to deal with primes 7 and 17, then the next dozen are pretty easy, then we hit a roadblock, because 71, 73 and 79 are too similar-sounding to 7 and 17. IMO this is a good place for our inevitable surrender to the vast quantity of prime numbers. At least we get harmonics 32-64 all named. --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 10:25, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
+::: Well Praveen had a brilliant idea and now I have to eat my words. :) 70 can be fitwe (50 + 20). Fits the logic of colorspeak perfectly. This lets us cover harmonics 64-128 without adding any new words.
+::: 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37
+::: ya za la tha sa na twetha twena thiwa thisa
+::: 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67
+::: fowa fotha fosa fitha fina siwa sisa
+::: 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97
+::: fitwewa fitwetha fitwena fithitha fithina fifosa
+::: 101, 103, 107, 109, 113, 127
+::: fifiwa fifitha fifisa fifina fisitha sisisa
+::: BTW the first two lines can be sung to the tune of Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
+::: --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 06:31, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
 == Incorrect formula for converting a color name? ==
@@ Line 91: / Line 106: @@
 :: A response to these comments in general: Thank you so much for taking the time to think so deeply about this! It makes me very happy to know my tool has at least one enthusiastic user. Sorry I took so long to reply. I left some specific comments below the paragraphs to which they are most relevant. --[[User:M-yac|M-yac]] ([[User talk:M-yac|talk]]) 03:47, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
+::: I've been mulling over how to have both uses of "negative" coexist without confusing the user. I do like the narrower meaning, and don't like it being altered. I wouldn't have a problem with you personally using the term that way in your writings, which is what I meant by not being dictatorial. But by labeling your usage "color notation", I feel that words are being put in my mouth.
+::: I think the answer is when your usage occurs, the usage is marked somehow as alternate, and a link is provided to an explanatory paragraph on the about page. (Which I of course would help you write, or you could just pull from what I've written here.) For example the color notation output for 4/5 could be
+::::: descending yo 3rd,
+::::: gu negative 3rd, g-3
+::::: (<u>alternate usage</u> of "negative")
+::: with the underlined text being the aforementioned link. Would this work for you?
+::: As for "dzg5" or "dezogu 5th" for 5/7, I think there's quite enough 1-letter and 2-letter abbreviations already, and 5/7 should simply be written "desc zg5". Funny, in all my years, I've never needed anything beyond desc. But I'm curious, can you give me examples of when dezogu would be used?
+::: I'm being a stickler for this because the quality of your webapp is so high, I'm sure in the future far most people will learn color notation directly from xen-calc than from my writings. Especially now that the xenwiki links to it on every interval page. You will have far, far more than one "enthusiastic user"! But of course with freeware, you never get to see how big your user base becomes. Anyway, once we get this matter straightened out, I'd like to link to xen-calc in the first paragraph of the color notation xenwiki page, and also on my various websites. --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 11:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
+== Possible extension of colorspeak to describe certain subgroups ==
+Using 9 instead of 3 could be "wawa", as in Laquinyo wawa = 2.9.15 & 3125/3072. See https://en.xen.wiki/w/Kite_Guitar_Scales#Eleven-tone_-_The_checkerboard_scale_.288L_3s.29. Note that 2.9.5 & 3125/3072 is impossible, so once we know the first 2 elements of the subgroup and the comma, the 3rd element is automatically determined (altho it could also be written as 2.9.5/3). The rule is, use 15 only if the comma's 3-count is an odd number, which incidentally necessitates the 5-count also being odd. Thus Gu wawa uses 2.9.5 not 2.9.15.
+A 2.27.whatever subgroup would be triwa. Using 4 instead of 2 would have the unfortunate name "caca". Maybe call it bica instead? Not sure how to name subgroups like 2.3.35 or 2.3.7/5 or 2.7/5.9/5.
+--[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 22:01, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
+: Yaza means 2.3.5.7. Barbershop is yaza, but they avoid 7-under intervals. Thus it could be described as yazo music. --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 06:17, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
+== Possible "de-colorization" of colorspeak ==
+The five colors wa, yo, gu, zo and ru could all be replaced with words derived directly from the words three, five and seven. This requires a new syllable "te" that means ten or teen, used for primes 13, 17, and 19.
+{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+|+
+!prime
+! colspan="2" |-o ("oh") for over
+! colspan="2" |-u ("oo") for under
+! colspan="2" |-a ("ah") for all
+! colspan="2" |-e ("eh") for exponent
+|-
+|2
+| colspan="2" |—
+| colspan="2" |—
+|twa
+|—
+|bi ("bee")
+|squared
+|-
+|3
+| colspan="2" |—
+| colspan="2" |—
+|tha
+|—
+|tri ("tree")
+|cubed
+|-
+| 5
+|fo
+|5o
+| fu
+| 5u
+|fa
+| 5a
+| fe
+| ^5
+|-
+|7
+|iso
+|7o
+|su
+|7u
+| isa
+| 7a
+|se
+|^7
+|-
+|11
+|ilo
+|1o
+|lu
+| 1u
+|ila
+|1a
+|le
+|^11
+|-
+|13
+|tetho
+|3o
+|tethu
+|3u
+|tetha
+|3a
+|tethe
+|^13
+|-
+|17
+|teso
+|17o
+|tesu
+|17u
+|tesa
+|17a
+|tese
+|^17
+|-
+|19
+|teno
+|19o
+|tenu
+|19u
+|tena
+|19a
+|tene
+|^19
+|}
+Currently, 41, 43 and 47 are fowo, fotho and foso. But fotho looks like 5-over 3-over. So 41, 43 and 47 must become forwo, fortho and forso.
+Advantages:
+* More logical, easier to learn.
+* fewer homonyms: no more "wa", "no" or "nu".
+Disadvantages:
+* The names of intervals using primes 13, 17 and 19 become less concise.
+* Widely used 7-limit colors become less concise: yy -> 5oo, zg -> 7o5u, likewise for ry, rg, zy, ryy, etc.
+* The 4:5:6 triad becomes C5o, which looks like a dyad.
+* The 6:7:9 triad becomes C7o, which looks like a 7th chord.
+* The current nomenclature is widely used in the xenwiki and various apps.
+This could be taken further and ilo/lu/ila could become tewo/tewu/tewa. Or it could be taken not as far, and wa could be retained for prime 3, allowing tho/thu/tha for prime 13.
+Overall I think the disadvantages of decolorization outweigh the advantages. Just noting the possibility here. --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 06:17, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
+== Possible "de-heptatonicization" of colorspeak ==
+Color notation uses the conventional heptatonic degrees 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. It's possible to avoid this by using "wo" and "wu" to mean 3-over and 3-under. Thus 10/9 would be not "yo 2nd" but "yowuwu". 27/16 would be "triwo". The Ptolomaic scale would be wa, wowo, yo, wu, wo, yowu, yowo, cowa. Presumably this would free up one's thinking, but one would lose the rough estimate of an interval's size that the degree provides, and it would be difficult to tell how big something like zoguwuwu is. I don't personally recommend this notation, just noting the possibility here. --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 06:17, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
+== Possible simplification of colorspeak ==
+Primes 5 and 7 could be treated just like primes 11 and higher. Yo/gu/ya could become fo/fu/fa, and zo/ru/za could become so/su/(i)sa. This necessitates changing the prime 17 syllables from so/su/sa to something else, probably zo/zu/za. It also necessitates changing the forty- prefix from fo- to for-. Thus 41, 43 and 47 must become forwo, fortho and forso. Finally, sep- for septuple can become se-.
+{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+|+
+!prime
+! colspan="2" |-o ("oh") for over
+! colspan="2" |-u ("oo") for under
+! colspan="2" |-a ("ah") for all
+! colspan="2" |-e ("eh") for exponent
+|-
+|2
+| colspan="2" |—
+| colspan="2" |—
+| colspan="2" |—
+|bi ("bee")
+|double
+|-
+|3
+| colspan="2" |—
+| colspan="2" |—
+|wa
+|—
+|tri ("tree")
+|triple
+|-
+| colspan="7" |
+|quad
+|quadruple
+|-
+| 5
+|fo
+|5o
+| fu
+| 5u
+|fa
+| 5a
+| quin
+| quintuple
+|-
+|7
+|(i)so
+|7o
+|su
+|7u
+| (i)sa
+| 7a
+|se
+|septuple
+|-
+|11
+|(i)lo
+|1o
+|lu
+| 1u
+|(i)la
+|1a
+|le
+|11-fold
+|-
+|13
+|tho
+|3o
+|thu
+|3u
+|tha
+|3a
+|the
+|13-fold
+|-
+|17
+|zo
+|17o
+|zu
+|17u
+|za
+|17a
+|ze
+|17-fold
+|-
+|19
+|(i)no
+|19o
+|(i)nu
+|19u
+|na
+|19a
+|ne
+|19-fold
+|-
+|23
+|twetho
+|23o
+|twethu
+|23u
+|twetha
+| 23a
+|twethe
+|23-fold
+|}
+The 4:5:6 chord would change from Cy to C5o. Unfortunately this looks like a thirdless C chord with a flat 5th. Not a huge problem, since one can get used to it, but C5o is certainly jarring at first. Same with 6:7:9 becoming C7o which looks a lot like Co7, the conventional dim7 chord. Likewise there's C5o7 and C7o7. Another solution is to write Cfo, Cfo7, Cso and Cso7. (BTW this is why 11-over is abbreviated 1o not 11o, and 13-over is 3o not 13o. To avoid 11-limit or 13-limit triads looking like 11th chords or 13th chords.)
+The letter s gets used more frequently, perhaps overloading it slightly. For example the Sasaru comma (Ru minus Lalawa) becomes Sasasu = ss7u.
+The term "color" is still useful and would be retained to refer to any "row" of the JI lattice formed by a chain of 5ths. One could still talk about bicolored vs tricolored chords and scales. Thus the name of the notation would remain color notation or colorspeak.
+Advantages:
+* More logical, easier to learn.
+* Much better for speakers of languages that don't distinguish between r and l.
+Disadvantages:
+* The rainbow metaphor gets lost. (But it breaks down at some point with higher primes anyway.)
+* Widely used 7-limit colors become less concise: y -> 5o, yy -> 5oo, zg -> 7o5u, etc. Thus staff music becomes more cluttered and chord names become longer.
+* The 7-limit comma names become more "same-y", with s and f replacing y, g, z and r.
+* The 4:5:6 triad becomes C5o, which looks like a diminished dyad. (Or it becomes Cfo.)
+* The 6:7:9 triad becomes C7o, which looks like a dim 7th chord. (Or it becomes Cso.)
+* Fa, the new word for five-all i.e. 5-limit, sounds like the solfege word Fa.
+* The current nomenclature is widely used in the xenwiki and various apps.
+--[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 06:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
+: Other proposals:
+: * replace la/sa = large/small with something else, to avoid conflict with la = 11-all and sa = 7-all
+: * add -ti meaning "T", short for temperament, as in Fu = 81/80, Futi = meantone temperament
+: --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 08:49, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
+:: As a longtime fan of Color Notation, I vouch for the "fo/so" version of this proposal.
+:: I also think "ha/ba" is a decent enough replacement for the "la/sa" pair. It uses consonants no color uses, it's derived from italian "alta/bassa" (except with "h" added for a consonant, also invoking "high") which refers to both sets' fifth-shift and pitch relative to the Central row. I won't get to check for conflicts with "b" as the flat sign nor "8va/8vb" for a while, however. [[User:Kaiveran|Kaiveran]] ([[User talk:Kaiveran|talk]]) 02:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
+::: Sawa 2nd becomes bw2, which looks like a flat wa 2nd. IMO a little too confusing. --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 10:11, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
+: After lengthy discussion in XA Discord, fo/fu/fa and so/su/sa didn't seem clearly better than the current system, which is rather entrenched at this point. But the suffix "-ti" has been officially adopted. --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 09:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
+== Colorspeak names for detempered edos? ==
+Za5 could refer to 5edo detempered using the 2.3.7 subgroup, making 1/1 8/7 4/3 3/2 7/4 2/1. Wa5 would be 1/1 9/8 4/3 3/2 16/9 2/1. Yaza19 would be 19edo detempered using the 2.3.5.7 subgroup.
+If there were a rigorous algorithm for finding the "best" ratio for a certain edostep, then the resulting scale could be *the* yaza19 (or whatever) scale. But one can prioritize minimizing the odd limit vs. maximizing the accuracy differently. Thus there are multiple plausible yaza19 scales, and "yaza19" would refer to a category of scales, not just one. --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 09:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
+== Colorspeak tensome ==
+Colorspeak's easy and colorspeak's pretty<br>
+Colorspeak's pithy/pyth-y and colorspeak's witty<br>
+Even if people insist otherwise,<br>
+Colorspeak is a delight to my eyes || 1 ||<br>
+Color notation is fit for the sages,<br>
+Simple and easy and good for all ages,<br>
+Colorspeak makes it clear what music is,<br>
+Learning it makes you a harmony whiz || 2 ||
+Porcupine, magic, vavoom and mavila,<br>
+Meantone and schismic and bleu and godzilla,<br>
+Temperament names with no logic or rhyme,<br>
+Learning all those takes up way too much time || 3 ||
+I wanted to find out the perfect notation,<br>
+I made many friends with the same dedication,<br>
+The prospects were looking so terribly bleak,<br>
+Till one day I stumbled upon colorspeak || 4 ||
+Colorspeak helps us pursue meditation,<br>
+Nothing's effective like color notation,<br>
+My favorite yoga pose beats out the rest<br>
+Yazalathasana's simply the best || 5 ||
+Cherries make every fruit salad more pleasant,<br>
+Roses and orchids enrich every present<br>
+Honeymoon nights are enriched by the moon,<br>
+Color enriches the score of my tune || 6 ||
+If you're a choral or barbershop singer,<br>
+And you're not sure, on what pitch you should linger,<br>
+Common notation will not give a clue,<br>
+But color notation will truly help you || 7 ||
+Color notation is great for conductors,<br>
+Musical theorists and college instructors,<br>
+No fuss over pental and septimal thirds,<br>
+Colorspeak has much more elegant words || 8 ||
+Learning two new words is all you need to do,<br>
+Yazalathasana, followed by guru,<br>
+To notate harmonics, turn a into o,<br>
+That's almost all that a guru must know || 9 ||
+If you're confused about music notation,<br>
+These ten little stanzas will ease your frustration,<br>
+Notational matters will not leave you stressed,<br>
+'Cause color notation is simply the best || 10 ||
+-- Praveen Venkataramana (2024)
+--[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 20:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Kite's color notation: Difference between revisions