User:Lhearne/Extra-Diatonic Intervals: Difference between revisions

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The interval names shown in brackets could be said to be 'secondary', the others, 'primary'.

After releasing his system Keenan was informed that is was identical to the extended-diatonic interval-naming scheme of Adriaan Fokker but for the acknowledgment of more 11-limit ratios.This system depends on the tempering out of 81/80, where the diatonic major third, from four stacked fifths, approximates the just major third, 5/4. It also depends on the existence of neutral intervals, i.e., that the perfect fifth or equivalently, the chromatic semitone, subtends an even number of degrees of the ET. To simply to our familiar naming scheme for 12-tET, we observe that it applies to 24edo equally as directly as in 31-tET, where the prefixes correspond to degrees of the edo. Exactly the same is also true for 38-tET, twice 19-tET, a meantone which very closely approximates 1/3-comma meantone. Meantone temperament wherein the fifth is divided into two equally sized neutral thirds is referred to as neutral temperament. Whereas meantone temperament is generated by the fifth, iin neutral temperament the generator is half this interval, the neutral third. Where it was seen above that there are two neutral thirds, 9:11 and 22:27 that differ by 243/242, neutral temperament is at its most simple the temperament defined by this equivalence: the tempering out of 243/242, as meantone is defined by the tempering out of 81/80. The temperament that tempers out both 81/80 and 243/242 is called Mohajira, upon which Keenan's scheme can be said to be based.

After releasing his system Keenan was informed that is was identical to the extended-diatonic interval-naming scheme of Adriaan Fokker but for the acknowledgment of more 11-limit ratios.This system depends on the tempering out of 81/80, where the diatonic major third, from four stacked fifths, approximates the just major third, 5/4. It also depends on the existence of neutral intervals, i.e., that the perfect fifth or equivalently, the chromatic semitone, subtends an even number of degrees of the ET. To simply to our familiar naming scheme for 12-tET, we observe that it applies to 24edo equally as directly as in 31-tET, where the prefixes correspond to degrees of the edo. Exactly the same is also true for 38-tET, twice 19-tET, a meantone which very closely approximates 1/3-comma meantone. Meantone temperament wherein the fifth is divided into two equally sized neutral thirds is referred to as neutral temperament. Whereas meantone temperament is generated by the fifth, iin neutral temperament the generator is half this interval, the neutral third. Where it was seen above that there are two neutral thirds, 9:11 and 22:27 that differ by 243/242, neutral temperament is at its most simple the temperament defined by this equivalence: the tempering out of 243/242, as meantone is defined by the tempering out of 81/80. The temperament that tempers out both 81/80 and 243/242 is called Mohajira, upon which Keenan's scheme can be said to be based. As well as 24-tET, 31-tET and 38-tET, Mohajira is supported by 7-tET, 17-tET.

The primary interval names resulting in this system's application to ~~24-tET and 38-tET~~ is now show~~, along with 31-tET again~~ for easy comparison, where 'M', 'm', 'P', 'N', 'A', 'd', 'S' and 's' are shorthand for major, minor, perfect, neutral, augmented, diminished, super and sub, respectively:

The primary interval names resulting in this system's application to these ETs is now show for easy comparison, where 'M', 'm', 'P', 'N', 'A', 'd', 'S' and 's' are shorthand for major, minor, perfect, neutral, augmented, diminished, super and sub, respectively:

7edo: P1 N2 N3 P4 P5 N6 N7 P8

17edo: P1 m2 N2 M2 m3 N3 M3 P4 S4 s5 P5 m6 N6 M6 m7 N7 M7 P8

24edo: P1 S1/sm2 m2 N2 M2 SM2/sm3 m3 N3 M3 SM3/s4 P4 S4 A4/d5 s5 P5 S5/sm6 m6 N6 M6 SM6/sm7 m7 N7 M7 SM7/s8 P8

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38edo: P1 S1 A1 sm2 m2 N2 M2 SM2 A2/d3 sm3 m3 N3 M3 SM3 d4 s4 P4 S4 A4 SA4/sd5 d5 s5 P5 S5 A5 sm6 m6 N6 M6 SM6 A6/d7 sm7 m7 N7 M7 SM7 d8 s8 P8

to Meantone tunings that are not Mohajira tunings, the regular diatonic interval names can be applied, but with the addition of double augmented and double diminished:

to Meantone tunings that are not Mohajira tunings, the regular diatonic interval names can be applied, but with the addition of double augmented and double diminished from Fokker/Keenan's system.

19edo: P1 A1 m2 M2 A2/d3 m3 M3 d4 P4 A4 d5 P5 A5 m6 M6 A6/d7 m7 d8 P8

19edo: P1 A1 m2 M2 A2/d3 m3 M3 d4 P4 A4 d5 P5 A5 m6 M6 A6/d7 m7 d8 P8 (every second step of 38edo)

26edo: P1 A2 d2 m2 M2 A2 d3 m3 M3 A3 d4 P4 A4 AA4/AA5 d5 P5 A5 d6 m6 M6 A6 d7 m7 M7 A7 d8 P8

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In non-Meantone tunings, the two definitions of major third - 4:5 and 64:81, the just (or classic) and Pythagorean major thirds no-longer correspond. If intervals are to receive unique names then to one or both of these major thirds must be added a prefix. Keenan has been involved with the development of both types of systems. Only when the major is defined by it's mapping as fourth fifths, i.e. 81/64, can conserve interval arithmetic.

Keenan later describes how the scheme can be extended to also cover 72-tET and 41-tET. In 31-tET the fifth may divided into six minor seconds. This temperament is called Miracle, and is also supported by 41-tET and 72-tET. The first six generators of Miracle give the following intervals: P1 m2 SM2 m3 S4 P5, as can be seen in the table above. 31-tET may be covered by 15 generators downwards and 15 generators upwards from 1:1. In 72-tET, either side of the intervals that that result from these 31 notes, called Miracle[31] 15|15, lie unnamed intervals that may be found first at either 31 or 41 generators further upwards or downwards and in 41-tET, either at 10 or 31 generators. If, one degree of 41 or 72-tET above an interval or Miracle[31] 15|15 lies an unnamed interval that can be first found by an additional 31 generators upwards, it is given the same name as the interval directly below it, with the addition of the prefix 'n', for 'narrow'. Similarly, 'W' for 'wide' prefixes an unnamed interval one degree, 31 generators below. Since Miracle MOS scales (scales in which each interval class comes in at most two sizes, like the pentatonic, diatonic and chromatic scales) come in 10, 11 and 21 notes, we may label the intervals also of 10-tET, 11-tET and 21-tET with this system, though they give poor approximations of the just intervals associated with the interval names.

10edo: P1 m2 SM2 N3 s4 A4/d5 S5 N6 sm7 M7 P8

11edo: P1 m2 SM2 N3 s4 A4 d5 S5 N6 sm7 M7 P8

21edo: P1 S1 m2 N2 SM2 sm3 N3 M3 s4 P4 A4 d5 P5 S5 m6 N6 SM6 sm7 N7 M7 s8 P8

41edo: P1 S1 nsm2 sm2 m2 N2 nM2 M2 SM2 sm3 nm3 m3 N3 M3 nSM3 SM3 s4 P4 nS4 S4 A4 d5 s5 Ws5 P5 S5 sm6 Wsm6 m6 N6 M6 Wm6 SM6 sm7 m7 Wm7 N7 M7 SM7 WSM7 s8 P8

Though interval arithmetic still is conserved in 41edo, the major third is no longer the interval found at four perfect fifths. For this system, and for 72edo that interval is named a wide major third. Though many edos can be covered, many still cannot, including the Superpythagorean edos, where the fifth is sharper than just, and four fifths give an approximation to 7:9, the super major third, tempering out the septimal comma, 63:64.

=== [[Sagittal notation|Sagittal]] - [http://forum.sagittal.org/viewforum.php?f=9 sagispeak] ===

@@ Line 386: / Line 386: @@
 The interval names shown in brackets could be said to be 'secondary', the others, 'primary'.
-After releasing his system Keenan was informed that is was identical to the extended-diatonic interval-naming scheme of Adriaan Fokker but for the acknowledgment of more 11-limit ratios.This system depends on the tempering out of 81/80, where the diatonic major third, from four stacked fifths, approximates the just major third, 5/4. It also depends on the existence of neutral intervals, i.e., that the perfect fifth or equivalently, the chromatic semitone, subtends an even number of degrees of the ET. To simply to our familiar naming scheme for 12-tET, we observe that it applies to 24edo equally as directly as in 31-tET, where the prefixes correspond to degrees of the edo. Exactly the same is also true for 38-tET, twice 19-tET, a meantone which very closely approximates 1/3-comma meantone. Meantone temperament wherein the fifth is divided into two equally sized neutral thirds is referred to as neutral temperament. Whereas meantone temperament is generated by the fifth, iin neutral temperament the generator is half this interval, the neutral third. Where it was seen above that there are two neutral thirds, 9:11 and 22:27 that differ by 243/242, neutral temperament is at its most simple the temperament defined by this equivalence: the tempering out of 243/242, as meantone is defined by the tempering out of 81/80. The temperament that tempers out both 81/80 and 243/242 is called Mohajira, upon which Keenan's scheme can be said to be based.
+After releasing his system Keenan was informed that is was identical to the extended-diatonic interval-naming scheme of Adriaan Fokker but for the acknowledgment of more 11-limit ratios.This system depends on the tempering out of 81/80, where the diatonic major third, from four stacked fifths, approximates the just major third, 5/4. It also depends on the existence of neutral intervals, i.e., that the perfect fifth or equivalently, the chromatic semitone, subtends an even number of degrees of the ET. To simply to our familiar naming scheme for 12-tET, we observe that it applies to 24edo equally as directly as in 31-tET, where the prefixes correspond to degrees of the edo. Exactly the same is also true for 38-tET, twice 19-tET, a meantone which very closely approximates 1/3-comma meantone. Meantone temperament wherein the fifth is divided into two equally sized neutral thirds is referred to as neutral temperament. Whereas meantone temperament is generated by the fifth, iin neutral temperament the generator is half this interval, the neutral third. Where it was seen above that there are two neutral thirds, 9:11 and 22:27 that differ by 243/242, neutral temperament is at its most simple the temperament defined by this equivalence: the tempering out of 243/242, as meantone is defined by the tempering out of 81/80. The temperament that tempers out both 81/80 and 243/242 is called Mohajira, upon which Keenan's scheme can be said to be based. As well as 24-tET, 31-tET and 38-tET, Mohajira is supported by 7-tET, 17-tET.
-The primary interval names resulting in this system's application to 24-tET and 38-tET is now show, along with 31-tET again for easy comparison, where 'M', 'm', 'P', 'N', 'A', 'd', 'S' and 's' are shorthand for major, minor, perfect, neutral, augmented, diminished, super and sub, respectively:
+The primary interval names resulting in this system's application to these ETs is now show for easy comparison, where 'M', 'm', 'P', 'N', 'A', 'd', 'S' and 's' are shorthand for major, minor, perfect, neutral, augmented, diminished, super and sub, respectively:
+edo: P1 N2 N3 P4 P5 N6 N7 P8
+edo: P1 m2 N2 M2 m3 N3 M3 P4 S4 s5 P5 m6 N6 M6 m7 N7 M7 P8
 edo: P1 S1/sm2 m2 N2 M2 SM2/sm3 m3 N3 M3 SM3/s4 P4 S4 A4/d5 s5 P5 S5/sm6 m6 N6 M6 SM6/sm7 m7 N7 M7 SM7/s8 P8
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 edo: P1 S1 A1 sm2 m2 N2 M2 SM2 A2/d3 sm3 m3 N3 M3 SM3 d4 s4 P4 S4 A4 SA4/sd5 d5 s5 P5 S5 A5 sm6 m6 N6 M6 SM6 A6/d7 sm7 m7 N7 M7 SM7 d8 s8 P8
-to Meantone tunings that are not Mohajira tunings, the regular diatonic interval names can be applied, but with the addition of double augmented and double diminished:
+to Meantone tunings that are not Mohajira tunings, the regular diatonic interval names can be applied, but with the addition of double augmented and double diminished from Fokker/Keenan's system.
-edo: P1 A1 m2 M2 A2/d3 m3 M3 d4 P4 A4 d5 P5 A5 m6 M6 A6/d7 m7 d8 P8
+edo: P1 A1 m2 M2 A2/d3 m3 M3 d4 P4 A4 d5 P5 A5 m6 M6 A6/d7 m7 d8 P8 (every second step of 38edo)
 edo: P1 A2 d2 m2 M2 A2 d3 m3 M3 A3 d4 P4 A4 AA4/AA5 d5 P5 A5 d6 m6 M6 A6 d7 m7 M7 A7 d8 P8
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 In non-Meantone tunings, the two definitions of major third - 4:5 and 64:81, the just (or classic) and Pythagorean major thirds no-longer correspond. If intervals are to receive unique names then to one or both of these major thirds must be added a prefix. Keenan has been involved with the development of both types of systems. Only when the major is defined by it's mapping as fourth fifths, i.e. 81/64, can conserve interval arithmetic.
+Keenan later describes how the scheme can be extended to also cover 72-tET and 41-tET. In 31-tET the fifth may divided into six minor seconds. This temperament is called Miracle, and is also supported by 41-tET and 72-tET. The first six generators of Miracle give the following intervals: P1 m2 SM2 m3 S4 P5, as can be seen in the table above. 31-tET may be covered by 15 generators downwards and 15 generators upwards from 1:1. In 72-tET, either side of the intervals that that result from these 31 notes, called Miracle[31] 15|15, lie unnamed intervals that may be found first at either 31 or 41 generators further upwards or downwards and in 41-tET, either at 10 or 31 generators. If, one degree of 41 or 72-tET above an interval or Miracle[31] 15|15 lies an unnamed interval that can be first found by an additional 31 generators upwards, it is given the same name as the interval directly below it, with the addition of the prefix 'n', for 'narrow'. Similarly, 'W' for 'wide' prefixes an unnamed interval one degree, 31 generators below. Since Miracle MOS scales (scales in which each interval class comes in at most two sizes, like the pentatonic, diatonic and chromatic scales) come in 10, 11 and 21 notes, we may label the intervals also of 10-tET, 11-tET and 21-tET with this system, though they give poor approximations of the just intervals associated with the interval names.
+edo: P1 m2 SM2 N3 s4 A4/d5 S5 N6 sm7 M7 P8
+edo: P1 m2 SM2 N3 s4 A4 d5 S5 N6 sm7 M7 P8
+edo: P1 S1 m2 N2 SM2 sm3 N3 M3 s4 P4 A4 d5 P5 S5 m6 N6 SM6 sm7 N7 M7 s8 P8
+edo: P1 S1 nsm2 sm2 m2 N2 nM2 M2 SM2 sm3 nm3 m3 N3 M3 nSM3 SM3 s4 P4 nS4 S4 A4 d5 s5 Ws5 P5 S5 sm6 Wsm6 m6 N6 M6 Wm6 SM6 sm7 m7 Wm7 N7 M7 SM7 WSM7 s8 P8
+Though interval arithmetic still is conserved in 41edo, the major third is no longer the interval found at four perfect fifths. For this system, and for 72edo that interval is named a wide major third. Though many edos can be covered, many still cannot, including the Superpythagorean edos, where the fifth is sharper than just, and four fifths give an approximation to 7:9, the super major third, tempering out the septimal comma, 63:64.
 === [[Sagittal notation|Sagittal]] - [http://forum.sagittal.org/viewforum.php?f=9 sagispeak] ===