Talk:Meantone family: Difference between revisions

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::: What about meantone tunings that neither septimal meantone nor flattone nor dominant produce patent vals for, within the range otherwise covered by septimal meantone? Examples are [[55edo]] and 67edo at the less flat end and [[69edo]] and [[88edo]] at the more flat end. (I posted about both sets earlier on this Talk page.) [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 08:41, 24 August 2025 (UTC)

:::: I have no problem with the 7-limit version of it. The higher-limit extensions may need further investigations. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 10:05, 24 August 2025 (UTC)

::: Looks like your names are determined on the mapping of the last primes, which I'm not getting the point of. The mapping of 7 is the more distinguishing feature of these temps and that's like the whole point of putting them into a temp family.

::: > huygens -> grosstone -> huygens

::: > huygens -> meridetone -> huygens

::: Alternating the names ''huygens'' and ''grosstone''/''meridetone'' sounds like a bad idea. 19-limit grosstone seems good enough to be canon to me, tho 19-limit meridetone is debatable (see below).

::: > tridecimal meantone should be decanonicalized

::: Agreed. I also observed grosstone is actually more of a counterpart of 13-limit meanpop, as both temper out 144/143 and have more flexible tunings. However, I'll have to dig some old archive to see how it came out as it is. I remember someone called one of the 13-limit extensions ''meaningless'' (literally), which may be a name worth of a revival.

::: > 11-limit "meanenneadecal" should be renamed to "vincenzo" (which there is already precedent for, with 2.9.5.7.11 leantone referred to as "every other step of '''vincenzo'''")

::: I'm not sure. 13-limit meanenneadecal is 12f & 19. 13-limit vincenzo is 12 & 19. Both only have 13-odd-limit diamond monotone at 19. Same for meanplop, 12e & 19. It's not obvious to me (and to a random user) that 12 & 19 would be a more natural extension than either 12f & 19 or 12e & 19. On the Hemimean clan page, leantone used to be described as every other step of meanenneadecal, only changed to vincenzo by Recentlymaterialized early this year for reasons unexplained.

::: > I don't believe any pathways extending from either flattone or septimal meantone to the 19-limit, other than these 8, are worth preserving.

::: The 19-limit extensions of meridetone aren't worth preserving if the 19-limit extensions of tridecimal meantone are removed and vice versa. Meridetone isn't sharp of 43edo. It's exactly 43edo, same as tridecimal meantone to 31edo, unless 13-odd-limit diamond monotone isn't an issue to you, in which case tridecimal meantone can be sharper than 31edo too.

::: Rejecting meanplop also needs further discussion if you believe meanenneadecal and/or vincenzo can be preserved.

::: > roulette & mediantone

::: Roulette and mediantone are 2.9.5.7 and since a temp can't be a weak extension of itself, these names can't be used unchanged here.

::: Last, on Discord, you wrote: "['meanpoid'] is the meanpop extension that continues all the way to 19edo, but I think the meantone extension most suited for really being 19edo-specific is vincenzo anyway; meanpoppic should be canonical."

::: "Meanpoid" ranges from 19 to 31. "Meanpoppic" ranges from 50 to 31 and are highly complex. I'm not getting why you believe meanpoppic is a better extension. It just looks way less practical as an extension.

::: So at present I'd act on the cautious side and only agree to decanonicalize tridecimal meantone.

::: Finally, you didn't mention dominant. I think, as a first step, undecimal dominant should be decanonicalized for the reason I put in the article.

::: [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 10:05, 24 August 2025 (UTC)

@@ Line 175: / Line 175: @@
 ::: What about meantone tunings that neither septimal meantone nor flattone nor dominant produce patent vals for, within the range otherwise covered by septimal meantone?  Examples are [[55edo]] and 67edo at the less flat end and [[69edo]] and [[88edo]] at the more flat end.  (I posted about both sets earlier on this Talk page.)  [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 08:41, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
+:::: I have no problem with the 7-limit version of it. The higher-limit extensions may need further investigations. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 10:05, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
+::: Looks like your names are determined on the mapping of the last primes, which I'm not getting the point of. The mapping of 7 is the more distinguishing feature of these temps and that's like the whole point of putting them into a temp family.
+::: > huygens -> grosstone -> huygens
+::: > huygens -> meridetone -> huygens
+::: Alternating the names ''huygens'' and ''grosstone''/''meridetone'' sounds like a bad idea. 19-limit grosstone seems good enough to be canon to me, tho 19-limit meridetone is debatable (see below).
+::: > tridecimal meantone should be decanonicalized
+::: Agreed. I also observed grosstone is actually more of a counterpart of 13-limit meanpop, as both temper out 144/143 and have more flexible tunings. However, I'll have to dig some old archive to see how it came out as it is. I remember someone called one of the 13-limit extensions ''meaningless'' (literally), which may be a name worth of a revival.
+::: > 11-limit "meanenneadecal" should be renamed to "vincenzo" (which there is already precedent for, with 2.9.5.7.11 leantone referred to as "every other step of '''vincenzo'''")
+::: I'm not sure. 13-limit meanenneadecal is 12f & 19. 13-limit vincenzo is 12 & 19. Both only have 13-odd-limit diamond monotone at 19. Same for meanplop, 12e & 19. It's not obvious to me (and to a random user) that 12 & 19 would be a more natural extension than either 12f & 19 or 12e & 19. On the Hemimean clan page, leantone used to be described as every other step of meanenneadecal, only changed to vincenzo by Recentlymaterialized early this year for reasons unexplained.
+::: > I don't believe any pathways extending from either flattone or septimal meantone to the 19-limit, other than these 8, are worth preserving.
+::: The 19-limit extensions of meridetone aren't worth preserving if the 19-limit extensions of tridecimal meantone are removed and vice versa. Meridetone isn't sharp of 43edo. It's exactly 43edo, same as tridecimal meantone to 31edo, unless 13-odd-limit diamond monotone isn't an issue to you, in which case tridecimal meantone can be sharper than 31edo too.
+::: Rejecting meanplop also needs further discussion if you believe meanenneadecal and/or vincenzo can be preserved.
+::: > roulette & mediantone
+::: Roulette and mediantone are 2.9.5.7 and since a temp can't be a weak extension of itself, these names can't be used unchanged here.
+::: Last, on Discord, you wrote: "['meanpoid'] is the meanpop extension that continues all the way to 19edo, but I think the meantone extension most suited for really being 19edo-specific is vincenzo anyway; meanpoppic should be canonical."
+::: "Meanpoid" ranges from 19 to 31. "Meanpoppic" ranges from 50 to 31 and are highly complex. I'm not getting why you believe meanpoppic is a better extension. It just looks way less practical as an extension.
+::: So at present I'd act on the cautious side and only agree to decanonicalize tridecimal meantone.
+::: Finally, you didn't mention dominant. I think, as a first step, undecimal dominant should be decanonicalized for the reason I put in the article.
+::: [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 10:05, 24 August 2025 (UTC)