Talk:Meantone: Difference between revisions

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::: Septimal meantone isn't the only evidence that common practice music was mostly concordant (note: I distinguish consonance and concordance and hope you do too; otherwise your summary of the idea would be inaccurate). It's in the existence of meantone in the first place: to eliminate the wolf fourths and fifths. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 15:04, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

::: That is strong evidence for concordance in the 5-limit, not the 7-limit. Again, there is nothing wrong with presenting the ''theory'' of septimal concordance when it applies; it's just important to distinguish that theory from the mainstream interpretation of meantone as a (conceptual and practical) tuning oriented specifically toward ''5-limit'' concordance. Common practice included many meantone-based well-temperaments and meantones other than quarter-comma, so it is not appropriate to construe interpretations that rely on near-quarter-comma tuning as representing a canonical interpretation of the entirety of meantone-based harmony.

:::: That is strong evidence for concordance in the 5-limit, not the 7-limit. Again, there is nothing wrong with presenting the ''theory'' of septimal concordance when it applies; it's just important to distinguish that theory from the mainstream interpretation of meantone as a (conceptual and practical) tuning oriented specifically toward ''5-limit'' concordance. Common practice included many meantone-based well-temperaments and meantones other than quarter-comma, so it is not appropriate to construe interpretations that rely on near-quarter-comma tuning as representing a canonical interpretation of the entirety of meantone-based harmony.

::: --[[User:Bcmills|Bcmills]] ([[User talk:Bcmills|talk]]) 15:28, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

:::: --[[User:Bcmills|Bcmills]] ([[User talk:Bcmills|talk]]) 15:28, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

:::: Evidence of consideration of septimal intervals in the Renaissance and Baroque seems to be merely hard to find, not impossible. For instance, "[https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Vicentinos-dot-and-comma-notation-demonstrating-the-almost-just-8-7-septimal-wholetone_fig2_335653541 Fundamental Principles of Just Intonation and Microtonal Composition]"(*) by Thomas Nicholson and Marc Sabat at the Universität der Künste Berlin (no date given but must be at least as recent as 2012) cites people of the times at least thinking about septimal intervals: Giuseppe Tartini and Nicola Vicentino.

::::: Evidence of consideration of septimal intervals in the Renaissance and Baroque seems to be merely hard to find, not impossible. For instance, "[https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Vicentinos-dot-and-comma-notation-demonstrating-the-almost-just-8-7-septimal-wholetone_fig2_335653541 Fundamental Principles of Just Intonation and Microtonal Composition]"(*) by Thomas Nicholson and Marc Sabat at the Universität der Künste Berlin (no date given but must be at least as recent as 2012) cites people of the times at least thinking about septimal intervals: Giuseppe Tartini and Nicola Vicentino.

:::: (*)Indirect link: Goes to a page that requires clicking another link to download the article PDF.

::::: (*)Indirect link: Goes to a page that requires clicking another link to download the article PDF.

:::: Other Google search results for septimal intervals in Renaissance and Baroque music (and music of Nicola Vicentino and Giuseppe Tartini) give further tantalizing clues of the consideration of septimal intervals in these times, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-limit_tuning the Wikipedia page on 7-limit tuning] lists some composers going back to that era who considered septimal intervals to include consonant members, but gives little additional details. Overall, the gestalt impression that I get is that the Renaissance and Baroque music communities mostly swept the 7-limit under the rug, but a few people at least poked at it.

::::: Other Google search results for septimal intervals in Renaissance and Baroque music (and music of Nicola Vicentino and Giuseppe Tartini) give further tantalizing clues of the consideration of septimal intervals in these times, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-limit_tuning the Wikipedia page on 7-limit tuning] lists some composers going back to that era who considered septimal intervals to include consonant members, but gives little additional details. Overall, the gestalt impression that I get is that the Renaissance and Baroque music communities mostly swept the 7-limit under the rug, but a few people at least poked at it.

:::: [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 06:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

::::: [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 06:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

::::: There is a difference between presenting septimal meantone as ''a valid'' framework for interpreting meantone, and presenting it as ''the canonical'' framework for interpreting meantone. The former seems appropriate and historically justified; but taking the term “meantone” to mean “septimal meantone” by default instead does the latter, which is not consistent with how meantone has been presented in ''most'' (not ''all'') writing on conventional music theory.

:::::: There is a difference between presenting septimal meantone as ''a valid'' framework for interpreting meantone, and presenting it as ''the canonical'' framework for interpreting meantone. The former seems appropriate and historically justified; but taking the term “meantone” to mean “septimal meantone” by default instead does the latter, which is not consistent with how meantone has been presented in ''most'' (not ''all'') writing on conventional music theory.

::::: I am ok with presenting septimal meantone as a separate interpretation on par with conventional 5-limit meantone when it applies. I am not ok with conflating the two, as though users of meantone should be assumed to always intend the 7-limit interpretation.

:::::: I am ok with presenting septimal meantone as a separate interpretation on par with conventional 5-limit meantone when it applies. I am not ok with conflating the two, as though users of meantone should be assumed to always intend the 7-limit interpretation.

::::: --[[User:Bcmills|Bcmills]] ([[User talk:Bcmills|talk]]) 18:06, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::: --[[User:Bcmills|Bcmills]] ([[User talk:Bcmills|talk]]) 18:06, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::: I agree with that. I am just saying that septimal meantone has not been completely absent historically. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 23:26, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::: I agree with that. I am just saying that septimal meantone has not been completely absent historically. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 23:26, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

== Wrong Septimal Comma in tuning spectrum table? ==

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: Adding the harrison comma ofc is a reasonable idea, tho I'm not sure how helpful it is. Basically every eigenmonzo tuning is a fractional-comma tuning. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 13:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

: P.s. these septimal- and Pythagorean-comma tunings were added by MMTM which means I'll simply remove them.

@@ Line 47: / Line 47: @@
 ::: Septimal meantone isn't the only evidence that common practice music was mostly concordant (note: I distinguish consonance and concordance and hope you do too; otherwise your summary of the idea would be inaccurate). It's in the existence of meantone in the first place: to eliminate the wolf fourths and fifths. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 15:04, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
-::: That is strong evidence for concordance in the 5-limit, not the 7-limit. Again, there is nothing wrong with presenting the ''theory'' of septimal concordance when it applies; it's just important to distinguish that theory from the mainstream interpretation of meantone as a (conceptual and practical) tuning oriented specifically toward ''5-limit'' concordance. Common practice included many meantone-based well-temperaments and meantones other than quarter-comma, so it is not appropriate to construe interpretations that rely on near-quarter-comma tuning as representing a canonical interpretation of the entirety of meantone-based harmony.
+:::: That is strong evidence for concordance in the 5-limit, not the 7-limit. Again, there is nothing wrong with presenting the ''theory'' of septimal concordance when it applies; it's just important to distinguish that theory from the mainstream interpretation of meantone as a (conceptual and practical) tuning oriented specifically toward ''5-limit'' concordance. Common practice included many meantone-based well-temperaments and meantones other than quarter-comma, so it is not appropriate to construe interpretations that rely on near-quarter-comma tuning as representing a canonical interpretation of the entirety of meantone-based harmony.
-::: --[[User:Bcmills|Bcmills]] ([[User talk:Bcmills|talk]]) 15:28, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
+:::: --[[User:Bcmills|Bcmills]] ([[User talk:Bcmills|talk]]) 15:28, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
-:::: Evidence of consideration of septimal intervals in the Renaissance and Baroque seems to be merely hard to find, not impossible.  For instance, "[https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Vicentinos-dot-and-comma-notation-demonstrating-the-almost-just-8-7-septimal-wholetone_fig2_335653541 Fundamental Principles of Just Intonation and Microtonal Composition]"(*) by Thomas Nicholson and Marc Sabat at the Universität der Künste Berlin (no date given but must be at least as recent as 2012) cites people of the times at least thinking about septimal intervals:  Giuseppe Tartini and Nicola Vicentino.
+::::: Evidence of consideration of septimal intervals in the Renaissance and Baroque seems to be merely hard to find, not impossible.  For instance, "[https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Vicentinos-dot-and-comma-notation-demonstrating-the-almost-just-8-7-septimal-wholetone_fig2_335653541 Fundamental Principles of Just Intonation and Microtonal Composition]"(*) by Thomas Nicholson and Marc Sabat at the Universität der Künste Berlin (no date given but must be at least as recent as 2012) cites people of the times at least thinking about septimal intervals:  Giuseppe Tartini and Nicola Vicentino.
-:::: (*)Indirect link:  Goes to a page that requires clicking another link to download the article PDF.
+::::: (*)Indirect link:  Goes to a page that requires clicking another link to download the article PDF.
-:::: Other Google search results for septimal intervals in Renaissance and Baroque music (and music of Nicola Vicentino and Giuseppe Tartini) give further tantalizing clues of the consideration of septimal intervals in these times, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-limit_tuning the Wikipedia page on 7-limit tuning] lists some composers going back to that era who considered septimal intervals to include consonant members, but gives little additional details.  Overall, the gestalt impression that I get is that the Renaissance and Baroque music communities mostly swept the 7-limit under the rug, but a few people at least poked at it.
+::::: Other Google search results for septimal intervals in Renaissance and Baroque music (and music of Nicola Vicentino and Giuseppe Tartini) give further tantalizing clues of the consideration of septimal intervals in these times, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-limit_tuning the Wikipedia page on 7-limit tuning] lists some composers going back to that era who considered septimal intervals to include consonant members, but gives little additional details.  Overall, the gestalt impression that I get is that the Renaissance and Baroque music communities mostly swept the 7-limit under the rug, but a few people at least poked at it.
-:::: [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 06:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
+::::: [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 06:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
-::::: There is a difference between presenting septimal meantone as ''a valid'' framework for interpreting meantone, and presenting it as ''the canonical'' framework for interpreting meantone. The former seems appropriate and historically justified; but taking the term “meantone” to mean “septimal meantone” by default instead does the latter, which is not consistent with how meantone has been presented in ''most'' (not ''all'') writing on conventional music theory.
+:::::: There is a difference between presenting septimal meantone as ''a valid'' framework for interpreting meantone, and presenting it as ''the canonical'' framework for interpreting meantone. The former seems appropriate and historically justified; but taking the term “meantone” to mean “septimal meantone” by default instead does the latter, which is not consistent with how meantone has been presented in ''most'' (not ''all'') writing on conventional music theory.
-::::: I am ok with presenting septimal meantone as a separate interpretation on par with conventional 5-limit meantone when it applies. I am not ok with conflating the two, as though users of meantone should be assumed to always intend the 7-limit interpretation.
+:::::: I am ok with presenting septimal meantone as a separate interpretation on par with conventional 5-limit meantone when it applies. I am not ok with conflating the two, as though users of meantone should be assumed to always intend the 7-limit interpretation.
-::::: --[[User:Bcmills|Bcmills]] ([[User talk:Bcmills|talk]]) 18:06, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
+:::::: --[[User:Bcmills|Bcmills]] ([[User talk:Bcmills|talk]]) 18:06, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
-:::::: I agree with that.  I am just saying that septimal meantone has not been completely absent historically.  [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 23:26, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
+::::::: I agree with that.  I am just saying that septimal meantone has not been completely absent historically.  [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 23:26, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
 == Wrong Septimal Comma in tuning spectrum table? ==
@@ Line 189: / Line 189: @@
 : Adding the harrison comma ofc is a reasonable idea, tho I'm not sure how helpful it is. Basically every eigenmonzo tuning is a fractional-comma tuning. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 13:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
+: P.s. these septimal- and Pythagorean-comma tunings were added by MMTM which means I'll simply remove them.