Talk:KISS notation: Difference between revisions

(11 intermediate revisions by 4 users not shown)

Line 1:

__TOC__

== Middle C ==

Your reasoning for choosing C4 as a standard pitch seems to imply that A=440 Hz both forces two reference pitch standards and has some sort of intrinsic disadvantage for people with absolute pitch.

Line 69:

Line 70:

::::::::: No. I'm all on my own. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 15:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

:::::::::: D is not central to anything in standard notation, or are you saying that D is central to the musical alphabet ABCDEFG? If the latter, what makes the center any more significant than the beginning or the end? Why is dorian mode unbiased, as you say?

:::::::::: Middle C is the note on the piano which appears between the two staves (It also happens to be used in a couple of the microtonal software applications for keyboards, but, in my experience, A4=440 is slightly more common even there - but I don't have a lot of exposure - and I've never seen any of these refer to D).

:::::::::: Use whichever you are comfortable using, but if you are advocating for others to follow suit, then I would suggest having a reason why that other people can understand. The ISO 16 standard dictates a frequency for A4, which is what virtually all mainstream western-influenced music references. From my personal experience, D would be a better choice than C for orchestra, since the string section can tune to an open D or open A or open G, but nothing else, but oboe players and concert clarinet have a much easier time tuning to A than to D. I think that A was chosen as a matter of practicality well over a hundred years ago, and not much has changed since then. If you want to challenge the A4=440 Hz part, then I'm 100% behind you to choose whichever frequency you want to choose. However, by communicating that choice in a way that is awkward for everyone, put a lot of undue burden on everyone else.

:::::::::: Say that two microtonal musicians wish to collaborate on a song over the miracle of the internet. Musician A chooses to perform in Orwell[9] in A in 53-edo at A4=440 Hz. Musician B can pretty easily set up to accommodate that. If Musician A instead chooses a reference pitch of E^4 = 334.33 Hz. Musician B can still figure this out, but it's a pain, because the reference pitch given is communicated in a weird way. Now, I'm sure we can agree that D is a lot less weird, but, if there is already a standard in place for musicians all over Europe and the Americas to refer to A4, anything that is not communicated as A4 is at least a little weird (as in, going against convention). So why? --[[User:Bozu|Bozu]] ([[User talk:Bozu|talk]]) 21:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

::::::::::: > Why is dorian mode unbiased, as you say?

::::::::::: Let's look at the circle of fifths. Dorian is the one that's generated by equal steps from each side. Dorian is also the mode that inverts to itself. The inversion pairs are like: Lydian-Locrian, Ionian-Phrygian, Mixolydian-Aeolian, and Dorian-Dorian.

::::::::::: > what makes the center any more significant than the beginning or the end?

::::::::::: The center is the reconciliation of the beginning and the end. If one argues for one, one can argue for the opposite with equal validity, but they unite at the center.

::::::::::: > going against convention

::::::::::: Citing the status quo is cheap. We're talking about different things: what's better and what we should do. Actually, digital tuning is very easy, just a few clicks to get the tuning files through. I'm not so concerned about acoustic instruments since most are difficult to microtune anyway. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 06:04, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't want to disturb your discussion too much, but I thought it might be useful to keep in mind that "KISS notation" is just '''one''' representative of many [[:Category:Notation|notation systems]]. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:24, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

: I suppose the topic has drifted from the initial question (which was directed at the reasoning given in the article to recommend middle C as a reference pitch), which maybe only the author can properly address. Perhaps this would be better addressed by linking this article to another article (which one?) that has more information about the topic. --[[User:Bozu|Bozu]] ([[User talk:Bozu|talk]]) 21:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

:: ... or we ask the author of the notation system, [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]], to shed some more light on the reasons for his choice. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:41, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

::: There is way too much for me to even begin to respond to above, and frankly I think some of the people in this comment section need to calm down. I do advocate for a "middle note = 261.6 pitch standard" for various reasons, and I already have a 1000-word section in the document on absolute pitch standardization regarding why I think it's a good idea. Beyond that, my thought is, tune to whatever pitch standard you want. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 02:46, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

:::: I'm sorry if that was offending. I failed to predict this conversation could get so long. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 03:58, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

:::: Sorry. I just wanted some clarification, and maybe to open up a discussion. I guess the topic is closed for discussion. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Feel free to clean all of this up if you want. --[[User:Bozu|Bozu]] ([[User talk:Bozu|talk]]) 16:49, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+__TOC__
 == Middle C ==
 Your reasoning for choosing C4 as a standard pitch seems to imply that A=440 Hz both forces two reference pitch standards and has some sort of intrinsic disadvantage for people with absolute pitch.
@@ Line 69: / Line 70: @@
 ::::::::: No. I'm all on my own. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 15:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
+:::::::::: D is not central to anything in standard notation, or are you saying that D is central to the musical alphabet ABCDEFG?  If the latter, what makes the center any more significant than the beginning or the end?  Why is dorian mode unbiased, as you say?
+:::::::::: Middle C is the note on the piano which appears between the two staves (It also happens to be used in a couple of the microtonal software applications for keyboards, but, in my experience, A4=440 is slightly more common even there - but I don't have a lot of exposure - and I've never seen any of these refer to D).
+:::::::::: Use whichever you are comfortable using, but if you are advocating for others to follow suit, then I would suggest having a reason why that other people can understand.  The ISO 16 standard dictates a frequency for A4, which is what virtually all mainstream western-influenced music references.  From my personal experience, D would be a better choice than C for orchestra, since the string section can tune to an open D or open A or open G, but nothing else, but oboe players and concert clarinet have a much easier time tuning to A than to D.  I think that A was chosen as a matter of practicality well over a hundred years ago, and not much has changed since then.  If you want to challenge the A4=440 Hz part, then I'm 100% behind you to choose whichever frequency you want to choose.  However, by communicating that choice in a way that is awkward for everyone, put a lot of undue burden on everyone else.
+:::::::::: Say that two microtonal musicians wish to collaborate on a song over the miracle of the internet.  Musician A chooses to perform in Orwell[9] in A in 53-edo at A4=440 Hz.  Musician B can pretty easily set up to accommodate that.  If Musician A instead chooses a reference pitch of E^4 = 334.33 Hz.  Musician B can still figure this out, but it's a pain, because the reference pitch given is communicated in a weird way.  Now, I'm sure we can agree that D is a lot less weird, but, if there is already a standard in place for musicians all over Europe and the Americas to refer to A4, anything that is not communicated as A4 is at least a little weird (as in, going against convention).  So why? --[[User:Bozu|Bozu]] ([[User talk:Bozu|talk]]) 21:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
+::::::::::: > Why is dorian mode unbiased, as you say?
+::::::::::: Let's look at the circle of fifths. Dorian is the one that's generated by equal steps from each side. Dorian is also the mode that inverts to itself. The inversion pairs are like: Lydian-Locrian, Ionian-Phrygian, Mixolydian-Aeolian, and Dorian-Dorian.
+::::::::::: > what makes the center any more significant than the beginning or the end?
+::::::::::: The center is the reconciliation of the beginning and the end. If one argues for one, one can argue for the opposite with equal validity, but they unite at the center.
+::::::::::: > going against convention
+::::::::::: Citing the status quo is cheap. We're talking about different things: what's better and what we should do. Actually, digital tuning is very easy, just a few clicks to get the tuning files through. I'm not so concerned about acoustic instruments since most are difficult to microtune anyway. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 06:04, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 I don't want to disturb your discussion too much, but I thought it might be useful to keep in mind that "KISS notation" is just '''one''' representative of many [[:Category:Notation|notation systems]]. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:24, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
+: I suppose the topic has drifted from the initial question (which was directed at the reasoning given in the article to recommend middle C as a reference pitch), which maybe only the author can properly address. Perhaps this would be better addressed by linking this article to another article (which one?) that has more information about the topic. --[[User:Bozu|Bozu]] ([[User talk:Bozu|talk]]) 21:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
+:: ... or we ask the author of the notation system, [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]], to shed some more light on the reasons for his choice. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:41, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
+::: There is way too much for me to even begin to respond to above, and frankly I think some of the people in this comment section need to calm down. I do advocate for a "middle note = 261.6 pitch standard" for various reasons, and I already have a 1000-word section in the document on absolute pitch standardization regarding why I think it's a good idea. Beyond that, my thought is, tune to whatever pitch standard you want. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 02:46, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
+:::: I'm sorry if that was offending. I failed to predict this conversation could get so long. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 03:58, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
+:::: Sorry.  I just wanted some clarification, and maybe to open up a discussion.  I guess the topic is closed for discussion.  Thanks for taking the time to respond. Feel free to clean all of this up if you want. --[[User:Bozu|Bozu]] ([[User talk:Bozu|talk]]) 16:49, 10 June 2020 (UTC)