Whynotnot by Carlos Augusto Scalassara Prando: Difference between revisions

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I'm answering this not to defend the microtonal/xenharmonic music, but to show that his "argument" is wrong and is really childish, and to some extent to show that his “argument” is more an opinion than an argument itself. Nobody needs to defend the microtonal/xenharmonic music in an opinion matter, but if you will defend the microtonal/xenharmonic music, you need to think about philosophical and psycological questions, and not about scientific and mathematical questions. The scientific and mathematical question has to come after, not before.

At the start of the text he shows an argument from authority, I don’t know if that was his intention, but doesn’t matter, even if that first part had been written by Harry Partch, Ivor Darreg, Lou Harrison (or any other composer), still an argument from authority and a terrible way to start an argument, because anybody who is beginning with xenharmonic music will don't give a damn about who wrote that text and what is his experience, this person will only want to know what is his argument and nothing more, probably after reading the text, and see if it makes sense or not, that the person will want to know who wrote it.

At the start of the text he shows an argument from authority, I don’t know if that was his intention, but doesn’t matter, even if that first part had been written by [[Harry Partch]], [[Ivor Darreg]], [[Lou Harrison]] (or any other composer), still an argument from authority and a terrible way to start an argument, because anybody who is beginning with xenharmonic music will don't give a damn about who wrote that text and what is his experience, this person will only want to know what is his argument and nothing more, probably after reading the text, and see if it makes sense or not, that the person will want to know who wrote it.

“'''''1. Tuning doesn’t make as much difference as you’d think'''''”

“'''''1. [[Tuning]] doesn’t make as much difference as you’d think'''''”

On the first paragraph as you can see he is not trying to do an argument again, he just wrote something personal. I don’t know any of his “fellow musicians”, but I think they are probably 12TET fellow musicians, guys who were molded by the “western” music and tuning. Any of you know that the majority of this people hate the sound of “western” microtonality, they normally accept the microtonality of India, Arab, Persian, and music of others Country, but they always think the “western” microtonality, even a quarter-tone is almost a sacrilege (to them, you can do a quarter-tone music but never in a chromatic way, because it’s “wrong”).

On the first paragraph as you can see he is not trying to do an argument again, he just wrote something personal. I don’t know any of his “fellow musicians”, but I think they are probably [[12edo|12TET]] fellow musicians, guys who were molded by the “western” music and tuning. Any of you know that the majority of this people hate the sound of “western” microtonality, they normally accept the microtonality of [[Indian music|India]], [[Arabic, Turkish, Persian|Arab]], [[Arabic, Turkish, Persian|Persian]], and music of others Country, but they always think the “western” microtonality, even a quarter-tone is almost a sacrilege (to them, you can do a quarter-tone music but never in a chromatic way, because it’s “wrong”).

“''Those who could hear a difference generally found it to be a negative difference.'' ''Most of the people who responded favorably at all were those who lacked in musical training and couldn't really hear the difference at all.''”

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(I can say for myself that microtonality is helping me a lot, especially with 12tet ear training, and my main instrument isn’t a melodic one (I’m drummer), but now I can hear a really difference on microtones and I started studying the microtonality music about 3 to 4 months).

And other thing, the argument is flawed, because we can say: “'''Even within the community of musicians, it is exceedingly rare to find someone who can identify a tone by ear, even after years of exposure.'''” So if you wanna gain absolute pitch on 12tet, you have to do some specific ear training, and the same for “absolute tuning”, or “absolute ~~EDO”~~, or “absolute microtones”.

And other thing, the argument is flawed, because we can say: “'''Even within the community of musicians, it is exceedingly rare to find someone who can identify a tone by ear, even after years of exposure.'''” So if you wanna gain absolute pitch on 12tet, you have to do some specific ear training, and the same for “absolute tuning”, or “absolute [[EDO]]”, or “absolute microtones”.

“''but it seems that only those with absolute pitch can learn, even with extensive training and exposure, to even occasionally distinguish which of the low ETs a piece of music is in.''”

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“''If anyone tells you that ETs all have distinct moods and personalities that are totally unlike anything found in 12-TET, this person has drank the kool-aid and is completely out of touch with the experience of all non-specialist listeners.''”

I think (this is my personal point of view) the moods and personalities are build not to an ET to another ET (of course you can compare them, because there are differences), but within the chosen ET, for example: in 12tet you can play a music in major and minor, or pentatonic, or modal, or dodecaphonic, or serialist, or atonal, or any combination as you can find within 12 tones. The same with all others ET’s and non-ET’s. And for me if I listen a music in 5edo or 7edo is big difference on the mood and personality to a music in 12tet (really big difference), for now, I can’t distinguish an 11edo and 13edo to a 12tet. Everybody will probably agree that there are differences in moods and personalities on the Indian music in relation to a 12tet. So again, the argument is invalid.

I think (this is my personal point of view) the moods and personalities are build not to an ET to another ET (of course you can compare them, because there are differences), but within the chosen ET, for example: in 12tet you can play a music in major and minor, or pentatonic, or modal, or dodecaphonic, or serialist, or atonal, or any combination as you can find within 12 tones. The same with all others ET’s and non-ET’s. And for me if I listen a music in [[5edo]] or [[7edo]] is big difference on the mood and personality to a music in 12tet (really big difference), for now, I can’t distinguish an 11edo and 13edo to a 12tet. Everybody will probably agree that there are differences in moods and personalities on the Indian music in relation to a 12tet. So again, the argument is invalid.

“'''''2. Changing tunings will not change who you are'''''”

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“'''You can take the composer out of the tonal center, but you can't really take the tonal center out of the composer.'''”

My point is: yes, you can change who you are, sometimes will be hard and difficult, but if you think is worth try, why not try? For example: I’m a drummer with a not so good ear that never had heard overtone singing about one year and a half, and in that time I really try to hear more than one tone, because I knew they were singing more than one tone, but nothing, so I start to practice all day of the week about 7 months ago, and now I can sing overtones and I can hear overtones in any acoustic instrument. So I was shaped by the almost all music for not listening ~~overtones~~, and change that, I change my perception of music and sound in general.

My point is: yes, you can change who you are, sometimes will be hard and difficult, but if you think is worth try, why not try? For example: I’m a drummer with a not so good ear that never had heard overtone singing about one year and a half, and in that time I really try to hear more than one tone, because I knew they were singing more than one tone, but nothing, so I start to practice all day of the week about 7 months ago, and now I can sing overtones and I can hear overtones in any acoustic instrument. So I was shaped by the almost all music for not listening [[overtone]]s, and change that, I change my perception of music and sound in general.

Other thing, you don’t need to find a different approach to compose with different tunings, you have to remember that the way you compose is probably your characteristic, your personality, and of course any tuning will change that if you don’t want to change.

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“''The community rewards all musical output equally, it really does, and NO ONE will tell you that you suck. It just doesn't happen. As brutal as the debates can be, no one in the community is willing to be brutally HONEST about the quality of your music.''”

I’m one of the guys who always “like” all music that I listen on facebook group. First, because I really like the music that I listened; second, I know that a lot of people who are in xenharmonic music have a different background and a different taste of music, so I’m not expecting anything in particular, and this allows me to be more open minded; third, anybody was asking to be a critic about their music, anybody can say that don’t like some music, anybody can say that don’t like the way the composer treat the harmony or the melody, but why, if the reason of the group is to share knowledge and music, and anybody can say about the quality of the music (and this happened), or someone can be the defender of the 31edo and starting a battle against all non 31edo music (like the defenders of the 12tet). I think xenharmonic group on facebook has to work more like an informal group.

I’m one of the guys who always “like” all music that I listen on facebook group. First, because I really like the music that I listened; second, I know that a lot of people who are in xenharmonic music have a different background and a different taste of music, so I’m not expecting anything in particular, and this allows me to be more open minded; third, anybody was asking to be a critic about their music, anybody can say that don’t like some music, anybody can say that don’t like the way the composer treat the harmony or the melody, but why, if the reason of the group is to share knowledge and music, and anybody can say about the quality of the music (and this happened), or someone can be the defender of the [[31edo]] and starting a battle against all non 31edo music (like the defenders of the 12tet). I think xenharmonic group on facebook has to work more like an informal group.

“''Most of MY music sucked, compared to what I wrote in 12-TET, and people loved it. And I became a worse composer because of it.''”

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“'''''6. 12-TET is actually and objectively the best ET (for many musical circumstances)'''''”

I can say the same about Just Intonation:

I can say the same about [[Just Intonation]]:

Just Intonation is actually and objectively the best tuning (for many musical circumstances).

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His point of view is just a conformist thinking, nothing more than that. [[Category:Why microtonality?]]

[[Category:Essays]]

@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">I'm answering this not to defend the microtonal/xenharmonic music, but to show that his "argument" is wrong and is really childish, and to some extent to show that his “argument” is more an opinion than an argument itself. Nobody needs to defend the microtonal/xenharmonic music in an opinion matter, but if you will defend the microtonal/xenharmonic music, you need to think about philosophical and psycological questions, and not about scientific and mathematical questions. The scientific and mathematical question has to come after, not before.</span>
-<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">At the start of the text he shows an argument from authority, I don’t know if that was his intention, but doesn’t matter, even if that first part had been written by Harry Partch, Ivor Darreg, Lou Harrison (or any other composer), still an argument from authority and a terrible way to start an argument, because anybody who is beginning with xenharmonic music will don't give a damn about who wrote that text and what is his experience, this person will only want to know what is his argument and nothing more, probably after reading the text, and see if it makes sense or not, that the person will want to know who wrote it.</span>
+<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">At the start of the text he shows an argument from authority, I don’t know if that was his intention, but doesn’t matter, even if that first part had been written by [[Harry Partch]], [[Ivor Darreg]], [[Lou Harrison]] (or any other composer), still an argument from authority and a terrible way to start an argument, because anybody who is beginning with xenharmonic music will don't give a damn about who wrote that text and what is his experience, this person will only want to know what is his argument and nothing more, probably after reading the text, and see if it makes sense or not, that the person will want to know who wrote it.</span>
-<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">“'''''1. Tuning doesn’t make as much difference as you’d think'''''”</span>
+<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">“'''''1. [[Tuning]] doesn’t make as much difference as you’d think'''''”</span>
-<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;"> On the first paragraph as you can see he is not trying to do an argument again, he just wrote something personal. I don’t know any of his “fellow musicians”, but I think they are probably 12TET fellow musicians, guys who were molded by the “western” music and tuning. Any of you know that the majority of this people hate the sound of “western” microtonality, they normally accept the microtonality of India, Arab, Persian, and music of others Country, but they always think the “western” microtonality, even a quarter-tone is almost a sacrilege (to them, you can do a quarter-tone music but never in a chromatic way, because it’s “wrong”).</span>
+<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;"> On the first paragraph as you can see he is not trying to do an argument again, he just wrote something personal. I don’t know any of his “fellow musicians”, but I think they are probably [[12edo|12TET]] fellow musicians, guys who were molded by the “western” music and tuning. Any of you know that the majority of this people hate the sound of “western” microtonality, they normally accept the microtonality of [[Indian music|India]], [[Arabic, Turkish, Persian|Arab]], [[Arabic, Turkish, Persian|Persian]], and music of others Country, but they always think the “western” microtonality, even a quarter-tone is almost a sacrilege (to them, you can do a quarter-tone music but never in a chromatic way, because it’s “wrong”).</span>
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">“''Those who could hear a difference generally found it to be a negative difference.'' ''Most of the people who responded favorably at all were those who lacked in musical training and couldn't really hear the difference at all.''”</span>
@@ Line 23: / Line 23: @@
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">(I can say for myself that microtonality is helping me a lot, especially with 12tet ear training, and my main instrument isn’t a melodic one (I’m drummer), but now I can hear a really difference on microtones and I started studying the microtonality music about 3 to 4 months).</span>
-<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">And other thing, the argument is flawed, because we can say: “'''Even within the community of musicians, it is exceedingly rare to find someone who can identify a tone by ear, even after years of exposure.'''” So if you wanna gain absolute pitch on 12tet, you have to do some specific ear training, and the same for “absolute tuning”, or “absolute EDO”, or “absolute microtones”.</span>
+<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">And other thing, the argument is flawed, because we can say: “'''Even within the community of musicians, it is exceedingly rare to find someone who can identify a tone by ear, even after years of exposure.'''” So if you wanna gain absolute pitch on 12tet, you have to do some specific ear training, and the same for “absolute tuning”, or “absolute [[EDO]]”, or “absolute microtones”.</span>
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;"> “''but it seems that only those with absolute pitch can learn, even with extensive training and exposure, to even occasionally distinguish which of the low ETs a piece of music is in.''”</span>
@@ Line 31: / Line 31: @@
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">“''If anyone tells you that ETs all have distinct moods and personalities that are totally unlike anything found in 12-TET, this person has drank the kool-aid and is completely out of touch with the experience of all non-specialist listeners.''”</span>
-<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">I think (this is my personal point of view) the moods and personalities are build not to an ET to another ET (of course you can compare them, because there are differences), but within the chosen ET, for example: in 12tet you can play a music in major and minor, or pentatonic, or modal, or dodecaphonic, or serialist, or atonal, or any combination as you can find within 12 tones. The same with all others ET’s and non-ET’s. And for me if I listen a music in 5edo or 7edo is big difference on the mood and personality to a music in 12tet (really big difference), for now, I can’t distinguish an 11edo and 13edo to a 12tet. Everybody will probably agree that there are differences in moods and personalities on the Indian music in relation to a 12tet. So again, the argument is invalid.</span>
+<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">I think (this is my personal point of view) the moods and personalities are build not to an ET to another ET (of course you can compare them, because there are differences), but within the chosen ET, for example: in 12tet you can play a music in major and minor, or pentatonic, or modal, or dodecaphonic, or serialist, or atonal, or any combination as you can find within 12 tones. The same with all others ET’s and non-ET’s. And for me if I listen a music in [[5edo]] or [[7edo]] is big difference on the mood and personality to a music in 12tet (really big difference), for now, I can’t distinguish an 11edo and 13edo to a 12tet. Everybody will probably agree that there are differences in moods and personalities on the Indian music in relation to a 12tet. So again, the argument is invalid.</span>
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">“'''''2. Changing tunings will not change who you are'''''”</span>
@@ Line 47: / Line 47: @@
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;"> “'''You can take the composer out of the tonal center, but you can't really take the tonal center out of the composer.'''”</span>
-<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">My point is: yes, you can change who you are, sometimes will be hard and difficult, but if you think is worth try, why not try? For example: I’m a drummer with a not so good ear that never had heard overtone singing about one year and a half, and in that time I really try to hear more than one tone, because I knew they were singing more than one tone, but nothing, so I start to practice all day of the week about 7 months ago, and now I can sing overtones and I can hear overtones in any acoustic instrument. So I was shaped by the almost all music for not listening overtones, and change that, I change my perception of music and sound in general.</span>
+<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">My point is: yes, you can change who you are, sometimes will be hard and difficult, but if you think is worth try, why not try? For example: I’m a drummer with a not so good ear that never had heard overtone singing about one year and a half, and in that time I really try to hear more than one tone, because I knew they were singing more than one tone, but nothing, so I start to practice all day of the week about 7 months ago, and now I can sing overtones and I can hear overtones in any acoustic instrument. So I was shaped by the almost all music for not listening [[overtone]]s, and change that, I change my perception of music and sound in general.</span>
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">Other thing, you don’t need to find a different approach to compose with different tunings, you have to remember that the way you compose is probably your characteristic, your personality, and of course any tuning will change that if you don’t want to change.</span>
@@ Line 103: / Line 103: @@
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">“''The community rewards all musical output equally, it really does, and NO ONE will tell you that you suck. It just doesn't happen. As brutal as the debates can be, no one in the community is willing to be brutally HONEST about the quality of your music.''”</span>
-<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">I’m one of the guys who always “like” all music that I listen on facebook group. First, because I really like the music that I listened; second, I know that a lot of people who are in xenharmonic music have a different background and a different taste of music, so I’m not expecting anything in particular, and this allows me to be more open minded; third, anybody was asking to be a critic about their music, anybody can say that don’t like some music, anybody can say that don’t like the way the composer treat the harmony or the melody, but why, if the reason of the group is to share knowledge and music, and anybody can say about the quality of the music (and this happened), or someone can be the defender of the 31edo and starting a battle against all non 31edo music (like the defenders of the 12tet). I think xenharmonic group on facebook has to work more like an informal group.</span>
+<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">I’m one of the guys who always “like” all music that I listen on facebook group. First, because I really like the music that I listened; second, I know that a lot of people who are in xenharmonic music have a different background and a different taste of music, so I’m not expecting anything in particular, and this allows me to be more open minded; third, anybody was asking to be a critic about their music, anybody can say that don’t like some music, anybody can say that don’t like the way the composer treat the harmony or the melody, but why, if the reason of the group is to share knowledge and music, and anybody can say about the quality of the music (and this happened), or someone can be the defender of the [[31edo]] and starting a battle against all non 31edo music (like the defenders of the 12tet). I think xenharmonic group on facebook has to work more like an informal group.</span>
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">“''Most of MY music sucked, compared to what I wrote in 12-TET, and people loved it. And I became a worse composer because of it.''”</span>
@@ Line 123: / Line 123: @@
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">“'''''6. 12-TET is actually and objectively the best ET (for many musical circumstances)'''''”</span>
-<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">I can say the same about Just Intonation:</span>
+<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">I can say the same about [[Just Intonation]]:</span>
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">Just Intonation is actually and objectively the best tuning (for many musical circumstances).</span>
@@ Line 146: / Line 146: @@
 <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-size: 12pt;">His point of view is just a conformist thinking, nothing more than that.</span>      [[Category:Why microtonality?]]
+[[Category:Essays]]
+{{Todo| cleanup }}