Marvel: Difference between revisions
→Tunings: rework: this analysis is so at odds with everyone else's, as we've long found 197- and 240edo to be optimal edo tunings in the 7-limit, which is very well documented. The idea of not targeting 7-odd-limit intervals in favor of complex 5-limit intervals is very sus; the facts about 53edo and 84edo are also wrong, with 125edo missing, and the constraint of consistency is so arbitrary that it seems to be there just to single out the edos you like |
m Text replacement - "rank-3 temperament" to "rank-3 temperament" |
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'''Marvel''' is | {{Interwiki | ||
| en = Marvel | |||
| de = Marvel | |||
| es = | |||
| ja = | |||
}} | |||
{{Infobox regtemp | |||
| Title = Marvel | |||
| Subgroups = 2.3.5.7, 2.3.5.7.11 | |||
| Comma basis = [[225/224]] (7-limit); <br>[[225/224]], [[385/384]] (11-limit) | |||
| Edo join 1 = 19 | Edo join 2 = 22 | Edo join 3 = 31 | |||
| Mapping = 1; 1 0 2 -1; 0 1 2 -3 | |||
| Generators = 3/2, 5/4 | |||
| Generators tuning = 700.6, 383.5 | |||
| Optimization method = CWE | |||
| Pergen = (P8, P5, ^1) | |||
| Color name = Ruyoyoti | |||
| Odd limit 1 = 9 | Mistuning 1 = 2.57 | Complexity 1 = ? | |||
| Odd limit 2 = 11-limit 21 | Mistuning 2 = 3.86 | Complexity 2 = ? | |||
}} | |||
'''Marvel''' is a [[rank-3 temperament]] with the same [[lattice]] structure as [[5-limit]] [[JI]], while identifying the [[7/4|harmonic seventh (7/4)]] as a stack of two [[15/8|classical major sevenths (15/8)]] [[octave reduction|octave-reduced]], [[tempering out]] [[225/224]]. It is the head of the [[marvel family]]. | |||
Marvel tends to tune [[5/4]] flat, such that a stack of two such thirds give a sharp [[14/9]], and a stack of three such thirds give a sub-octave of [[35/18]] just short of the octave by a quartertone of [[36/35]]. The canonical [[11-limit]] [[extension]], sometimes aliased ''unimarv'', identifies the quartertone as [[33/32]], so that [[11/8]] is that plus a [[4/3|perfect fourth]]. This adds [[385/384]] and [[540/539]] to the comma list and makes it a member of both [[keenanismic temperaments|keenansimic]] and [[swetismic temperaments]]. | |||
The temperament was named by [[Gene Ward Smith]] in 2002–2003, when the 11-limit version was found first<ref>[https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_5145.html#5184 Yahoo! Tuning Group | ''Relative complexity and scale construction''] – first mention of ''marvel''.</ref><ref>[https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_5687.html Yahoo! Tuning Group | ''Top 135 11-limit planar temperaments''] – establishment as an 11-limit temperament.</ref>. Gene carried it to the 7-limit restriction in 2004<ref>[https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_50829.html Yahoo! Tuning Group | ''Marvel'']</ref>. | The temperament was named by [[Gene Ward Smith]] in 2002–2003, when the 11-limit version was found first<ref>[https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_5145.html#5184 Yahoo! Tuning Group | ''Relative complexity and scale construction''] – first mention of ''marvel''.</ref><ref>[https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_5687.html Yahoo! Tuning Group | ''Top 135 11-limit planar temperaments''] – establishment as an 11-limit temperament.</ref>. Gene carried it to the 7-limit restriction in 2004<ref>[https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_50829.html Yahoo! Tuning Group | ''Marvel'']</ref>. | ||
Extending marvel to the 13-limit is not as obvious. | Extending marvel to the 13-limit is not as obvious. Gene has chosen '''helios''', tempering out [[351/350]], as the canonical extension, but '''hecate''', tempering out [[325/324]] and [[729/728]], arguably makes more sense as it is closer in tuning<ref>[https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_101722.html Yahoo! Tuning Group | ''13-limit marvel'']</ref>. Hecate has a natural extension to the no-17 19-limit, by tempering out [[400/399]] and [[513/512]]. | ||
See [[Marvel family #Marvel]] for technical data. | See [[Marvel family #Marvel]] for technical data. | ||
| Line 50: | Line 72: | ||
Alternatively, it can be notated the same as full prime-limit just intonation, with a distinct accidental pair for each prime. That makes some intervals more intuitive, at the cost of hiding the structure of marvel tempering. For example, it is customary of the 5/4 to be a major third, and 7/4 to be a minor seventh. As a result, the fact that the 14/9 is a stack of two 5/4's is not revealed, and the related chords can be less convenient. | Alternatively, it can be notated the same as full prime-limit just intonation, with a distinct accidental pair for each prime. That makes some intervals more intuitive, at the cost of hiding the structure of marvel tempering. For example, it is customary of the 5/4 to be a major third, and 7/4 to be a minor seventh. As a result, the fact that the 14/9 is a stack of two 5/4's is not revealed, and the related chords can be less convenient. | ||
== Chords == | == Chords and harmony == | ||
Marvel enables [[essentially tempered chord]]s of [[ | Marvel enables [[essentially tempered chord]]s of [[marvel chords|marvel]], [[keenanismic chords|keenanismic]], [[swetismic chords|swetismic]], and [[undecimal marvel chords|undecimal marvel]]. | ||
Alternative 11-limit extensions give different sets of chords. One notable example, tempering out [[441/440]], enables [[prodigy chords]]. | Extending the temperament to the 13-limit through 325/324, resulting in hecate, enables chords of [[marveltwin chords|marveltwin]] and [[squbemic chords|squbemic]]. [[Hecate hexad]] is a chord peculiar to this temperament. Alternatively, helios enables chords of [[ratwolfsmic chords|ratwolfsmic]]. | ||
Alternative 11-limit extensions give different sets of chords. One notable example, tempering out [[441/440]], enables [[prodigy chords]]. | |||
== Scales == | == Scales == | ||
| Line 78: | Line 102: | ||
* [[Pump17]] | * [[Pump17]] | ||
* [[Pump18]] | * [[Pump18]] | ||
* [[Diamond9plus-marvel]] | |||
== Tunings == | == Tunings == | ||
The marvel extension | In the 7-limit, the optimal way such as that taken by [[TE]] and derivatives to close out the comma 225/224 is to tune primes 3 and 5 flat, and 2 and 7 sharp. If we tune the octave pure, the other inclinations remain. This indicates that the diminished third [[~]][[256/225]] should be sharp (towards [[~]][[8/7]]), the augmented second [[~]][[75/64]] be flat (towards [[~]][[7/6]]), the diminished fourth [[~]][[32/25]] be sharp (towards [[~]][[9/7]]) and the tritone [[~]][[45/32]] be flat (towards [[~]][[7/5]]), such that every [[7-limit]] [[9-odd-limit]] interval is tuned between itself and the [[5-limit]] interpretation it is separated from by [[225/224]]. If we take these as hard constraints, then [[53edo]] and [[84edo]] are the smallest edo tunings to satisfy them, but if overtempering is allowed, many smaller edos are possible, such as [[31edo|31-]] and [[41edo]]. Interestingly, [[72edo]], though very performant as a 7- and 11-limit tuning, is overtempered for some of these constraints, whereas 53edo, though satisfying these constraints, tempers the intervals closer to the more complex [[5-limit]] interpretations, though the 7-limit concordances of the 9-odd-limit still clearly work. [[84edo]], another superset of 12edo, is an interesting edo to look at for its high performance in large odd-limits. Going up to larger edos, [[125edo|125-]], [[166edo|166-]], [[178edo|178-]], [[197edo|197-]], and [[240edo]] are all great choices with different intonational characteristics. | ||
The marvel extension hecate has the no-17's [[19-limit]] as its subgroup, and helios is in the 13-limit. They merge in the rank-2 temperament [[catakleismic]], which can be conceptualized as accepting both rank-3 marvel structures simultaneously. One such tuning is excellently given by [[125edo]]. If we are looking for a small edo tuning instead, 53edo and 72edo are also reasonable edo tunings for the full no-17's 19-limit catakleismic, though in 53edo the 11 and 19 are a little off and in 72edo the 13 and 19 are a little off instead; 72edo is positioned better as a full [[17-limit]] marvel system while 53edo is positioned better as a (potentially no-11's) [[13-limit]] marvel system. If we focus on the 11-limit of undecimal marvel (discarding the mapping of 13), 31edo and 41edo are the smallest to clearly succeed, though many accept 41edo's mapping of [[~]][[13/8]] to the neutral sixth and some accept that mapping for 31edo as contextually usable too. | |||
=== Norm-based tunings === | |||
{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" | |||
|+ style="font-size: 105%; white-space: nowrap;" | 7-limit norm-based tunings | |||
|- | |||
! rowspan="2" | | |||
! colspan="3" | Euclidean | |||
|- | |||
! Constrained | |||
! Constrained & skewed | |||
! Destretched | |||
|- | |||
! Tenney | |||
| CTE: ~3/2 = 700.9740{{c}}, ~5/4 = 384.2084{{c}} | |||
| CWE: ~3/2 = 700.6222{{c}}, ~5/4 = 383.8540{{c}} | |||
| POTE: ~3/2 = 700.4075{{c}}, ~5/4 = 383.6376{{c}} | |||
|} | |||
{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" | |||
|+ style="font-size: 105%; white-space: nowrap;" | 11-limit norm-based tunings | |||
|- | |||
! rowspan="2" | | |||
! colspan="3" | Euclidean | |||
|- | |||
! Constrained | |||
! Constrained & skewed | |||
! Destretched | |||
|- | |||
! Tenney | |||
| CTE: ~3/2 = 701.3729{{c}}, ~5/4 = 383.1461{{c}} | |||
| CWE: ~3/2 = 700.6048{{c}}, ~5/4 = 383.4538{{c}} | |||
| POTE: ~3/2 = 700.3887{{c}}, ~5/4 = 383.5403{{c}} | |||
|} | |||
=== Tuning spectrum === | === Tuning spectrum === | ||
This spectrum assumes pure 2 and 7. | This spectrum assumes pure 2 and 7. | ||
{| class="wikitable center-all" | {| class="wikitable center-all left-4" | ||
|- | |- | ||
! [[Eigenmonzo|Eigenmonzo<br>(Unchanged-interval)]] | ! [[Eigenmonzo|Eigenmonzo<br>(Unchanged-interval)]] | ||
! | ! Perfect<br>fifth (¢) | ||
! | ! Classical<br>major third (¢) | ||
! Comments | ! Comments | ||
|- | |- | ||
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* [[Marvel temperaments]], the collection of rank-2 temperaments that temper out the marvel comma | * [[Marvel temperaments]], the collection of rank-2 temperaments that temper out the marvel comma | ||
== | == References == | ||
<references/> | <references/> | ||
[[Category:Marvel| ]] <!-- main article --> | [[Category:Marvel| ]] <!-- main article --> | ||
[[Category:Rank-3 temperaments]] | |||
[[Category:Marvel family]] | [[Category:Marvel family]] | ||
[[Category:Keenanismic temperaments]] | [[Category:Keenanismic temperaments]] | ||
[[Category:Swetismic temperaments]] | [[Category:Swetismic temperaments]] | ||