User talk:Xenwolf: Difference between revisions

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== Diatonic Functions of Xenharmonic Intervals ==

Okay, so one thing I'm interested in is covering the diatonic functions of notes at various intervals' distance away from the tonic- you know, for microtonal composers who still want to work with tonality- I honestly think pages like 3/2 and 4/3 could benefit from having information on things like this. On another note, do we have information on the thirty-five 12edo proper modes? Pages documenting these modes would serve to gather variations and alternative tunings for these scales and modes into one place. For the record, I know that in my own microtonal composing, I tend not to go very far from my 12edo roots for reasons detaild in [[A recovering microtonalist's critical reaction to Why Microtonality]], yet, I also can't help but agree with Mike S in his comments in [[Microtonalists critical reaction to a recovering ~~microtonalists~~ critical reaction to Why ~~Microtonaltiy~~?]] on 7-limit and 11-limit being important- in fact, I would add the 13-limit to his list. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 16:11, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Okay, so one thing I'm interested in is covering the diatonic functions of notes at various intervals' distance away from the tonic- you know, for microtonal composers who still want to work with tonality- I honestly think pages like 3/2 and 4/3 could benefit from having information on things like this. On another note, do we have information on the thirty-five 12edo proper modes? Pages documenting these modes would serve to gather variations and alternative tunings for these scales and modes into one place. For the record, I know that in my own microtonal composing, I tend not to go very far from my 12edo roots for reasons detaild in [[A recovering microtonalist's critical reaction to Why Microtonality]], yet, I also can't help but agree with Mike S in his comments in [[Microtonalists' critical reaction to a recovering microtonalist's critical reaction to Why Microtonality?]] on 7-limit and 11-limit being important- in fact, I would add the 13-limit to his list. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 16:11, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

: First, I guess that I'm not the right person to ask about ''diatonic functions of notes''. Second, as far as I know there are no pages about the 35 [[12edo]] modes, but it could as well be that I only missed it/them. Third, I didn't compose anything yet. Currently I mostly help others to put information into the wiki ... I really like listening xen music of any kind, I also like "meditating" on intervals, that's why I uploaded several sound examples, especially those in prime limits above 5. But I also know that timbre is very important. BTW: today I discovered that [[11/7]] has a very convincing sound. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 19:33, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

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You might want to check my sandbox and comment on my latest tests. The template ''temperament data'' is something similar to infobox interval and et. The ''collapsed box'' is nothing but a general formatting device. Let me know if either of them makes anything better. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 05:59, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

: The problem occurs whenever pipe chars (<code>~~<nowiki>|</nowiki>~~</code>) are passed to a template. Replacing pipes by <code><nowiki>{{!}}</nowiki></code> each will solve the problem, see following example:

: The problem occurs whenever pipe chars (<code>|</code>) are passed to a template. Replacing pipes by <code><nowiki>{{!}}</nowiki></code> each will solve the problem, see following example:

{{User:FloraC/Collapsed box

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: I tried to open some pages in Edge and observe that parts of pages don't appear (marked with '''cut''') while on some other pages all seem to be correct (marked by ''okay''): <br> [[157edo]] '''cut''', [[28edo]] ''okay'', [[103edo]] '''cut''', [[104edo]] ''okay'', [[176edo]] '''cut'''. <br> Can you confirm the observations for this list? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 14:44, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

:: I can confirm your observations for 157edo, and 176edo easily~~. The same thing applies for~~ logging ~~out~~ in these ~~cases~~. I'm not quite sure what's missing from 103edo after logging out since I'm not as familiar with the contents of that page, but both of the pages that you've marked "okay" pages seem to be fine after logging out. I've also noticed that the list of prime harmonics on the 159edo page is in the wrong place after logging out- it's on the page, but in a different spot. I've ~~noticed~~ that after ~~logging~~ in on ~~Edge~~, ~~all~~ the ~~parts~~ of the pages ~~seem~~ to be present. --[[User:~~Aura~~|~~Aura~~]] ([[User talk:~~Aura~~|talk]]) 15:38, ~~16 July 2021~~ (UTC)

:: I can confirm your observations for 157edo, and 176edo easily, though I've noticed that after logging in on Edge, all the parts of the pages seem to be present, while things are missing from these pages after logging out even using Google Chrome. I'm not quite sure what's missing from 103edo after logging out since I'm not quite as familiar with the contents of that page, but both of the pages that you've marked "okay" pages seem to be fine after logging out. I've also noticed that the list of prime harmonics on the 159edo page is in the wrong place after logging out- it's on the page, but in a different spot. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:38, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

::: It looks like a cache issue. Pages of the [https://en.xen.wiki/w/Special:AllPages?from=&to=&namespace=0 article namespace] (also called <code>(main)</code>) are not showing additions after [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3ASidebar&type=revision&diff=73749&oldid=73598 13:06, 5 July 2021]. There are some exceptions for '''''moved''''' or '''''newly created''''' pages which I don't understand right now. I think that's something that should be reported to [[User:Tyler Henthorn]]. Unfortunately I have currently not the time to do it... --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:50, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

:::: I now reported the issue via PM to Tyler. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:25, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

== Suggested change to edo pages: odd harmonics instead of primes in edo approximation tables ==

Hello Xenwolf,

We (including [[User:SupahstarSaga]], [[User:Fredg999]] and I) would like to resurrect [[Xenharmonic_Wiki:Things_to_do#Odd_harmonics_table_instead_of_prime_harmonics_for_edos|an old suggestion of mine]], namely using odds instead of primes. This is because odd mappings give more information at a glance than primes: odd harmonic mappings don't always correspond to prime mappings (for example, a stack of two best 3's don't always make the best 9), and subgroup interpretations can sometimes care about ratios between odds harmonics, for example, 7/5 and 11/5. I made a template implementing this suggestion here: [[User:Inthar/Template:Harmonics_in_edo]]. We also want to do this with other equal-step tunings such as [[13edt]]. Tom Price also suggested an additional visual idea I really like. We could try implementing that with Lua, but in the meantime I think this will do.

I'd just like to reopen the discussion about this suggested change. Please let me know on the relevant discussion page if you have any concerns.

[[User:Inthar|Inthar]] ([[User talk:Inthar|talk]]) 21:15, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

== Organization of music references ==

After cleaning up (or setting up) the Music sections in a few edo pages ([[0edo]] through [[6edo]] so far), I've started to think that maintaining lists like these manually is probably the reason why they end up outdated most of the time. I thought, maybe a xenharmonic music database would be better suited for that, in which each piece could be tagged with its tuning(s), scale(s) if applicable, etc. And then I noted that the Wiki is basically a database of pages and other stuff, and that using the Wiki could be an option. Of course, music will have to be added manually, but that's the price for having a platform-independent database; the advantage to be able to filter by genre or by tuning seems to be worth the effort to me.

So I was wondering, are there technical issues that would arise if we were to create individual pages for each track instead of building large tables spread over multiple pages as we currently do? It seems to me that there are already a lot of pages because of all these intervals and scales having individual pages, so I don't see what sort of problem could arise, but I'm asking in case I'm missing something. Also, if you're aware of automating tools that could be helpful in setting up multiple pages (e.g. reading from a .csv file and creating pages in bulk), that could be handy as well. [[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 03:23, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

'''UPDATE:''' After discussing with [[User:Xenoindex|xenoindex]], we agreed that having single pages for each song would clutter the search results in the search bar. I came up with the idea to set up a parallel wiki, something like ''music.xen.wiki'', which could store those pages while avoiding the aforementioned problem. It would be easy to bridge those pages with the main wiki, although I guess that assumes linking to the English wiki only.

Also, I want to clarify that I'm not sure whether or not I will have a lot of time to spend on this project, especially since there are other things I want to work on as well. For now I'm just asking to know how it works in case I want to start. There is already one other user from XA Discord who mentioned being interested to contribute if we started though, so I wouldn't be alone. --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 15:56, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

'''UPDATE 2:''' After discussing with [[User:SupahstarSaga|HEHEHE I AM A SUPAHSTAR SAGA]], maybe another wiki isn't necessary, but otherwise we agreed on the other core ideas. --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 15:28, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

== Request for help on a new microtonal theory ==

Xenwolf, I know that you have much more experience in microtones than I do, so I would like you to take a look at my new microtonal theory, [[User:Userminusone/Intervallic Polarity|Intervallic Polarity]]. This is something that I think has useful implications, but right now, its definition is a bit shaky and also quite subjective. If you are willing, I would really appreciate it if you could give me your thoughts on this theory or maybe even help me refine and expand upon its definition. Best regards, [[User:Userminusone|Userminusone]] ([[User talk:Userminusone|talk]]) 21:54, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

: Sorry for my late response. I meanwhile tried twice to get an overview of your ideas and kept it on my todo list. Now I have to admit that I'm probably not able to contribute to this theory. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 13:19, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

== A clue on the telephone numbers problem ==

Looking forward to your comment on [[User talk:KingHyperio #Telephone numbers problem]]. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 19:11, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

: I just read about it (and already responded there). --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 13:15, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

== Leantone Temperament ==

I saw that you were the last to edit a couple of the Leantone scale pages, and I wanted to ask if Leantone, as a 2.9.5.7.11 temperament, is meant to reach the 11 in 3 generators or 9? I’m likely going to add something on the subgroup temperaments page for it so I wanted to check. [[User:KingHyperio|KingHyperio]] ([[User talk:KingHyperio|talk]]) 16:07, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Or if it does in some other number of generators [[User:KingHyperio|KingHyperio]] ([[User talk:KingHyperio|talk]]) 16:12, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

: I'm really sorry, but I have to admit that I have only made formal changes to these pages and have no experience with the actual content. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 16:32, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Ok, thanks anyways [[User:KingHyperio|KingHyperio]] ([[User talk:KingHyperio|talk]]) 16:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

: From my understanding, the tempered 11th harmonic is reached in 3 periods (~1200¢ each) and 3 generators (~192.5¢ each). If you look at the reduced mapping on x31eq (http://x31eq.com/cgi-bin/rt.cgi?limit=2_9_5_7_11&ets=6_7d), the last column of the matrix will give you that information (the top "3" is the number of periods, the bottom "3" is the number of generators). This implies that 11/8 is mapped to 3 generators, for example. I hope this helps! --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 18:32, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

== 311 EDO huge table ==

311 EDO is a one-of-a-kind extremely consistent system to the point it can be said to be the first true melodic model of the harmonic series itself. Therefore to understand the structure of the harmonic series (at least in the 41-limit add-73) without making it impractical, it would be useful to use 311 EDO, and 311 EDO is a great alternative to cents for this reason (which requires smaller numbers and only round numbers) because of being distinctly consistent in the [[23-odd-limit]] and consistent in the 41-prime-limited 77-odd-limit with prime harmonic 73 included as the only prime over 41 and under 81 which is more in tune than out of tune (which is to say its step error is less than a quarter), but furthermore, because of it fitting the way 311 EDO maps the harmonic series by filling a gap and because of it being an odd prime with less error than all previous primes. 311 EDO is therefore a natural system to inspect when looking at ways of modelling higher-limit systems and has important connections with many simpler systems. Just one example would be [[Canousmic_temperaments#Superlimmal|Superlimmal]], the 29-limit 80&311 temperament. Another reason it is a one-of-a-kind system is that in terms of having rooted harmonics with less than 25% error each, I did a search before in Python 3 and there is nothing that beats it until over 20 thousand, meaning it is simultaneously the first and last EDO to truly approximate the harmonic series, and the fact it does it up to a very large subset of the 77-odd-limit makes it worth inspecting the structure of for anyone wishing to learn medium-to-high-complexity tempered JI/odd-limits. Sorry if I've overstressed my point. Also the other table has been there for as long as I remember, and I felt it was both incomplete and messy so I wanted a table from a more systematic approach. --[[User:Godtone|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone|talk]]) 23:17, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Oh one other thing, feel free to suggest ways of making the table prettier. For example, I was initially only putting the intervals of the form a/b for a>b and for a and b from 39 to 78 (not including primes >41 other than 73 and corresponding thusly to the 41-prime-limited add-73 77-odd-limit) but then I noticed the end of the table was sparse and some intervals were missing, so instead I put the octave-complement of each such interval too, but this made the organisation messier. It does mean however that the interval table could potentially have its size halved without any loss of information and with the only caveat that you'd have to calculate octave-complements of intervals yourself (both in terms of number of steps and in terms of JI intervals). I think my former method which lead to a more orderly organisation of odd-limit intervals per interval of 311 EDO was maybe better especially considering it lead to simpler code too. Once I or others decide which is the better method I may start hand-prettifying the table by adding consistently-mapped odd-limit intervals or commas for empty intervals of 311 EDO in the table. One example could be that 9801/9800, 441/440 and 385/384 are all mapped to 1\311, although my concern for giving interpretations like that is there is a gargantuan number of intervals that are mapped to one or two steps of 311 EDO, so maybe leaving them blank is more elegant. --[[User:Godtone|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone|talk]]) 23:26, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

== Categorization of redirects ==

I see it fit to categorize temperament redirects cuz they're eventually to be expanded to full articles. For ratios redirecting to interval names, I'm not sure. They're essentially the same concept and will never be distinct articles. So the categories are duplicate, and the maintenance load also doubles. What's your take on this? [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 12:52, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

: I find it generally useful to also make alternative names findable in categories (they are italicized to distinguish them). In the index of a book, there are sometimes short references instead of page numbers (I consider the categorization of redirects to be the wiki equivalent of this). But I'm not sure the categories are useful overall. Personally, I see them more as "fire stairs" to articles. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 18:22, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

== Step ratio terms in other languages ==

Kite has brought up what he sees as a possible issue in hard vs. soft terms ([[Talk:TAMNAMS#Hard_and_soft_in_French.2C_German.2C_etc.|here]]) when translated to European languages. Looking at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature_names_and_translations Wikipedia page] he's linking to, there seems to be no conflict in Romance languages at least, and from my German knowledge there is no conflict between ''hart/weich'' and ''Dur/moll''. There could be other reasons literal translations of hard and soft are unsuitable, though (I don't know what [[de:Diskussion:Schrittverhältnis#Benennung|your comment]] on the German article for step ratio was pointing at). My suggestion would be to create a page for translating TAMNAMS hard and soft terms, specifically, and patiently wait for native speaker input. [[User:Inthar|Inthar]] ([[User talk:Inthar|talk]]) 14:52, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

: Concur. --[[User:Godtone|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone|talk]]) 19:30, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

:: Thanks for letting me know, I replied in [[Talk:TAMNAMS#Hard and soft in French, German, etc.]]. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 20:29, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

== Maintenance bot ==

Hi Xenwolf, I notice that we sometimes do manual cleaning which could be automated by bots, such as fixing double redirects. I stumbled upon this yesterday: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Pywikibot/redirect.py

Do you think there's a chance it could be installed on this wiki? Unless there's already something similar available that I don't know of yet? --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 16:11, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

: I don't think anything like this exists yet. The person who takes care of the server side installation is [[User:Tyler Henthorn|Tyler Henthorn]], maybe you can share your ideas with him. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:06, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

== In-browser sound generation ==

Hi Xenwolf!

My in-browser sound generation project ([[User:Plumtree/Sound]]) is essentially ready. Could you review [[User:Plumtree/common.js]] and [[User:Plumtree/common.css]] and, if there're no issues, include those globally?

The best option would've been [[mw:Extension:Gadgets]] for JS and [[mw:Extension:TemplateStyles]] for CSS. Alas, they aren't installed. I've asked [[User:Tyler Henthorn]] for them but his last edit was more than a year ago and it's unlikely he'll answer any time soon.

What does JS do?

* It reacts to clicks on HTML elements with class <code>sequence-audio</code>. When one is clicked, it reads its <code>data-sequence</code> attribute and plays the encoded pattern.

* If <code>data-lock</code> attribute is set, it also adds the <code>sequence-audio-playing</code> class and ignores further clicks for the duration of the sequence.

* Timbres defined by their harmonic spectra are supported. Builtins are <code>sine</code>, <code>semisine</code>, <code>flute</code>, <code>violin</code>; you can supply custom ones using <code>data-timbre-X</code> attributes.

* A sequence consists of the following elements, separated by whitespaces:

** <code>wait:DURATION</code> - adds DURATION ms to the global time shift, which starts at 0.

** <code>FREQUENCY:DURATION:GAIN:SHIFT:INSTRUMENT</code> - plays FREQUENCY for DURATION ms with GAIN with timbre specified with INSTRUMENT. It starts at global shift + SHIFT ms, and global shift isn't modified. INSTRUMENT's default is <code>sine</code>; SHIFT's default is <code>0</code>.

* For example, sequences used for interval demonstration look like this: <code>440:1000:0.1 660:1000:0.1:500 wait:2000 660:1000:0.1 440:1000:0.1:500 wait:2000 440:1000:0.1 660:1000:0.1</code>.

* Modern browsers support Web Audio API quite well and I don't expect any compatibility issues.

What does CSS handle?

* Background colour of <code>.sequence-audio-button</code> elements depending on their state.

* Cursor styles upon <code>.sequence-audio-button</code> elements so that they're interpreted as interactive.

* Additionally, <code>.white-key</code> and <code>.black-key</code> elements have the corresponding colours. Those may be used to build interactive keyboards for ETs.

Examples (all require [[User:Plumtree/common.js]] and [[User:Plumtree/common.css]] to be properly viewed):

* [[User:Plumtree/Sound]] - mostly tests of intervals.

* [[User:Plumtree/Sandbox/Interval]] - actually tests of intervals as they're going to be included into [[Template:Infobox Interval]].

* [[User:Plumtree/Audio]] - the template which is currently the main interface for this JS.

[[User:Plumtree|Plumtree]] ([[User talk:Plumtree|talk]]) 17:52, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

== Thank you for reconstructing my diagram on 10648/10647 ==

Thank you, Xenwolf, for reconstructing my diagram on the harmonisma, 10648/10647, and your helpful hint on formatting monospaced text for alignment.

Your reformatting gave me the opportunity to spot and correct my mistakes in the original diagram, which were of course my own responsibility. Thanks to your help, the corrected diagram should hopefully help readers to visualize the relationship between the 10648/10647 and the 352/351 and 364/363. [[User:Mschulter1325|Mschulter1325]] 19:38, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

: You're welcome, it was a pleasure to help. Shouldn't the chart be placed on page [[10648/10647]] itself after the corrections are made? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 10:03, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it's corrected, and I just put some final touches on tidying up the alignment, so it should be ready to go on the article's page. Many thanks for your assistance! [[User:Mschulter1325|Mschulter1325]] 04:20, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

== Add HEJI font to CSS ==

Hi Xenwolf,

I'd like to add a bit of code to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] so that we can use the HEJI2Text font on the wiki (instead of relying on a bunch of SVG images, namely), but I don't have admin access so I can't do it myself. Do you think you could add it?

/* use HEJI2Text font if class="heji" */

@font-face {

font-family: HEJI2Text;

src: url(https://plainsound.org/fonts/HEJI2Text.otf);

}

.heji {

font-family: HEJI2Text;

}

</nowiki></pre>

--[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 07:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

: Hi Fredg999, would you please try the additions needed within [[User:Fredg999/common.css|''your personal common.css'']] and prepare or collect some representative examples (maybe just links to pages)? This would also be a good basis to better understand the impact of this proposal on the site and for discussing individual points with other users. Best regards --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 18:06, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

:: I added a few examples to [[User:Fredg999/Sandbox#HEJI2Text testing area|''my personal Sandbox page'']]. Here is a screenshot of the result: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10ZLax9RYqQg3-mQtV9YeKPC--2VmvR43/view?usp=sharing

:: The main use case I have in mind is the [[Helmholtz-Ellis notation]] page, where we could improve the reference tables and give more examples efficiently using the HEJI font. I was thinking of adding a table that shows all symbols (a bit like the HEJI notation palette on [https://www.plainsound.org/HEJI/ Plainsound's HS CALC]), but also shows the character mapping, so that readers can learn to use the font more easily on the wiki and elsewhere.

:: Most symbols from the [[Alternative symbols for ups and downs notation]] could also be written using the HEJI font, since it provides symbols for each combination of the standard chromatic accidentals with one, two or three up or down arrows.

:: Many other pages about just intonation could benefit from HEJI symbols as well, such as interval tables on various EDO pages (for easy up/down symbols as a complement to their "text" version; e.g. [[22edo#Intervals]]), as well as the [[Overtone scale]] page, where notation would be another representation of the JI scales, alongside the solfege notations already present, for example.

:: --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 03:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

::: I added the font to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 06:52, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

:::: Thank you! --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 07:13, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 42: / Line 42: @@
 == Diatonic Functions of Xenharmonic Intervals ==
-Okay, so one thing I'm interested in is covering the diatonic functions of notes at various intervals' distance away from the tonic- you know, for microtonal composers who still want to work with tonality- I honestly think pages like 3/2 and 4/3 could benefit from having information on things like this.  On another note, do we have information on the thirty-five 12edo proper modes?  Pages documenting these modes would serve to gather variations and alternative tunings for these scales and modes into one place.  For the record, I know that in my own microtonal composing, I tend not to go very far from my 12edo roots for reasons detaild in [[A recovering microtonalist's critical reaction to Why Microtonality]], yet, I also can't help but agree with Mike S in his comments in [[Microtonalists critical reaction to a recovering microtonalists critical reaction to Why Microtonaltiy?]] on 7-limit and 11-limit being important- in fact, I would add the 13-limit to his list. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 16:11, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
+Okay, so one thing I'm interested in is covering the diatonic functions of notes at various intervals' distance away from the tonic- you know, for microtonal composers who still want to work with tonality- I honestly think pages like 3/2 and 4/3 could benefit from having information on things like this.  On another note, do we have information on the thirty-five 12edo proper modes?  Pages documenting these modes would serve to gather variations and alternative tunings for these scales and modes into one place.  For the record, I know that in my own microtonal composing, I tend not to go very far from my 12edo roots for reasons detaild in [[A recovering microtonalist's critical reaction to Why Microtonality]], yet, I also can't help but agree with Mike S in his comments in [[Microtonalists' critical reaction to a recovering microtonalist's critical reaction to Why Microtonality?]] on 7-limit and 11-limit being important- in fact, I would add the 13-limit to his list. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 16:11, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
 : First, I guess that I'm not the right person to ask about ''diatonic functions of notes''. Second, as far as I know there are no pages about the 35 [[12edo]] modes, but it could as well be that I only missed it/them. Third, I didn't compose anything yet. Currently I mostly help others to put information into the wiki ... I really like listening xen music of any kind, I also like "meditating" on intervals, that's why I uploaded several sound examples, especially those in prime limits above 5. But I also know that timbre is very important. BTW: today I discovered that [[11/7]] has a very convincing sound. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 19:33, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
@@ Line 710: / Line 710: @@
 You might want to check my sandbox and comment on my latest tests. The template ''temperament data'' is something similar to infobox interval and et. The ''collapsed box'' is nothing but a general formatting device. Let me know if either of them makes anything better. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 05:59, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
-: The problem occurs whenever pipe chars (<code><nowiki>|</nowiki></code>) are passed to a template. Replacing pipes by <code><nowiki>{{!}}</nowiki></code> each will solve the problem, see following example:
+: The problem occurs whenever pipe chars (<code>&#124;</code>) are passed to a template. Replacing pipes by <code><nowiki>{{!}}</nowiki></code> each will solve the problem, see following example:
 <div style="margin-left: 1.5em; padding: 0 0.5em; border: 1px solid #ddf; background-color: #fafafa">
 {{User:FloraC/Collapsed box
@@ Line 883: / Line 883: @@
 : I tried to open some pages in Edge and observe that parts of pages don't appear (marked with '''cut''') while on some other pages all seem to be correct (marked by ''okay''): <br> [[157edo]] '''cut''', [[28edo]] ''okay'', [[103edo]] '''cut''', [[104edo]] ''okay'', [[176edo]] '''cut'''. <br> Can you confirm the observations for this list? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 14:44, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
-:: I can confirm your observations for 157edo, and 176edo easily.  The same thing applies for logging out in these cases.  I'm not quite sure what's missing from 103edo after logging out since I'm not as familiar with the contents of that page, but both of the pages that you've marked "okay" pages seem to be fine after logging out.  I've also noticed that the list of prime harmonics on the 159edo page is in the wrong place after logging out- it's on the page, but in a different spot.  I've noticed that after logging in on Edge, all the parts of the pages seem to be present. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:38, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
+:: I can confirm your observations for 157edo, and 176edo easily, though I've noticed that after logging in on Edge, all the parts of the pages seem to be present, while things are missing from these pages after logging out even using Google Chrome.  I'm not quite sure what's missing from 103edo after logging out since I'm not quite as familiar with the contents of that page, but both of the pages that you've marked "okay" pages seem to be fine after logging out.  I've also noticed that the list of prime harmonics on the 159edo page is in the wrong place after logging out- it's on the page, but in a different spot. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:38, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
+::: It looks like a cache issue. Pages of the [https://en.xen.wiki/w/Special:AllPages?from=&to=&namespace=0 article namespace] (also called <code>(main)</code>) are not showing additions after [https://en.xen.wiki/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3ASidebar&type=revision&diff=73749&oldid=73598 13:06, 5 July 2021]. There are some exceptions for '''''moved''''' or '''''newly created''''' pages which I don't understand right now. I think that's something that should be reported to [[User:Tyler Henthorn]]. Unfortunately I have currently not the time to do it... --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 15:50, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
+:::: I now reported the issue via PM to Tyler. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:25, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
+== Suggested change to edo pages: odd harmonics instead of primes in edo approximation tables ==
+Hello Xenwolf,
+We (including [[User:SupahstarSaga]], [[User:Fredg999]] and I) would like to resurrect [[Xenharmonic_Wiki:Things_to_do#Odd_harmonics_table_instead_of_prime_harmonics_for_edos|an old suggestion of mine]], namely using odds instead of primes. This is because odd mappings give more information at a glance than primes: odd harmonic mappings don't always correspond to prime mappings (for example, a stack of two best 3's don't always make the best 9), and subgroup interpretations can sometimes care about ratios between odds harmonics, for example, 7/5 and 11/5. I made a template implementing this suggestion here: [[User:Inthar/Template:Harmonics_in_edo]]. We also want to do this with other equal-step tunings such as [[13edt]]. Tom Price also suggested an additional visual idea I really like. We could try implementing that with Lua, but in the meantime I think this will do.
+I'd just like to reopen the discussion about this suggested change. Please let me know on the relevant discussion page if you have any concerns.
+[[User:Inthar|Inthar]] ([[User talk:Inthar|talk]]) 21:15, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
+== Organization of music references ==
+After cleaning up (or setting up) the Music sections in a few edo pages ([[0edo]] through [[6edo]] so far), I've started to think that maintaining lists like these manually is probably the reason why they end up outdated most of the time. I thought, maybe a xenharmonic music database would be better suited for that, in which each piece could be tagged with its tuning(s), scale(s) if applicable, etc. And then I noted that the Wiki is basically a database of pages and other stuff, and that using the Wiki could be an option. Of course, music will have to be added manually, but that's the price for having a platform-independent database; the advantage to be able to filter by genre or by tuning seems to be worth the effort to me.
+So I was wondering, are there technical issues that would arise if we were to create individual pages for each track instead of building large tables spread over multiple pages as we currently do? It seems to me that there are already a lot of pages because of all these intervals and scales having individual pages, so I don't see what sort of problem could arise, but I'm asking in case I'm missing something. Also, if you're aware of automating tools that could be helpful in setting up multiple pages (e.g. reading from a .csv file and creating pages in bulk), that could be handy as well. [[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 03:23, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
+'''UPDATE:''' After discussing with [[User:Xenoindex|xenoindex]], we agreed that having single pages for each song would clutter the search results in the search bar. I came up with the idea to set up a parallel wiki, something like ''music.xen.wiki'', which could store those pages while avoiding the aforementioned problem. It would be easy to bridge those pages with the main wiki, although I guess that assumes linking to the English wiki only.
+Also, I want to clarify that I'm not sure whether or not I will have a lot of time to spend on this project, especially since there are other things I want to work on as well. For now I'm just asking to know how it works in case I want to start. There is already one other user from XA Discord who mentioned being interested to contribute if we started though, so I wouldn't be alone. --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 15:56, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
+'''UPDATE 2:''' After discussing with [[User:SupahstarSaga|HEHEHE I AM A SUPAHSTAR SAGA]], maybe another wiki isn't necessary, but otherwise we agreed on the other core ideas. --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 15:28, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
+== Request for help on a new microtonal theory ==
+Xenwolf, I know that you have much more experience in microtones than I do, so I would like you to take a look at my new microtonal theory, [[User:Userminusone/Intervallic Polarity|Intervallic Polarity]]. This is something that I think has useful implications, but right now, its definition is a bit shaky and also quite subjective. If you are willing, I would really appreciate it if you could give me your thoughts on this theory or maybe even help me refine and expand upon its definition. Best regards, [[User:Userminusone|Userminusone]] ([[User talk:Userminusone|talk]]) 21:54, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
+: Sorry for my late response. I meanwhile tried twice to get an overview of your ideas and kept it on my todo list. Now I have to admit that I'm probably not able to contribute to this theory. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 13:19, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
+== A clue on the telephone numbers problem ==
+Looking forward to your comment on [[User talk:KingHyperio #Telephone numbers problem]]. [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 19:11, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
+: I just read about it (and already responded there). --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 13:15, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
+== Leantone Temperament ==
+I saw that you were the last to edit a couple of the Leantone scale pages, and I wanted to ask if Leantone, as a 2.9.5.7.11 temperament, is meant to reach the 11 in 3 generators or 9? I’m likely going to add something on the subgroup temperaments page for it so I wanted to check. [[User:KingHyperio|KingHyperio]] ([[User talk:KingHyperio|talk]]) 16:07, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
+Or if it does in some other number of generators [[User:KingHyperio|KingHyperio]] ([[User talk:KingHyperio|talk]]) 16:12, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
+: I'm really sorry, but I have to admit that I have only made formal changes to these pages and have no experience with the actual content. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 16:32, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
+Ok, thanks anyways [[User:KingHyperio|KingHyperio]] ([[User talk:KingHyperio|talk]]) 16:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
+: From my understanding, the tempered 11th harmonic is reached in 3 periods (~1200¢ each) and 3 generators (~192.5¢ each). If you look at the reduced mapping on x31eq (http://x31eq.com/cgi-bin/rt.cgi?limit=2_9_5_7_11&ets=6_7d), the last column of the matrix will give you that information (the top "3" is the number of periods, the bottom "3" is the number of generators). This implies that 11/8 is mapped to 3 generators, for example. I hope this helps! --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 18:32, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
+== 311 EDO huge table ==
+EDO is a one-of-a-kind extremely consistent system to the point it can be said to be the first true melodic model of the harmonic series itself. Therefore to understand the structure of the harmonic series (at least in the 41-limit add-73) without making it impractical, it would be useful to use 311 EDO, and 311 EDO is a great alternative to cents for this reason (which requires smaller numbers and only round numbers) because of being distinctly consistent in the [[23-odd-limit]] and consistent in the 41-prime-limited 77-odd-limit with prime harmonic 73 included as the only prime over 41 and under 81 which is more in tune than out of tune (which is to say its step error is less than a quarter), but furthermore, because of it fitting the way 311 EDO maps the harmonic series by filling a gap and because of it being an odd prime with less error than all previous primes. 311 EDO is therefore a natural system to inspect when looking at ways of modelling higher-limit systems and has important connections with many simpler systems. Just one example would be [[Canousmic_temperaments#Superlimmal|Superlimmal]], the 29-limit 80&311 temperament. Another reason it is a one-of-a-kind system is that in terms of having rooted harmonics with less than 25% error each, I did a search before in Python 3 and there is nothing that beats it until over 20 thousand, meaning it is simultaneously the first and last EDO to truly approximate the harmonic series, and the fact it does it up to a very large subset of the 77-odd-limit makes it worth inspecting the structure of for anyone wishing to learn medium-to-high-complexity tempered JI/odd-limits. Sorry if I've overstressed my point. Also the other table has been there for as long as I remember, and I felt it was both incomplete and messy so I wanted a table from a more systematic approach. --[[User:Godtone|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone|talk]]) 23:17, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
+Oh one other thing, feel free to suggest ways of making the table prettier. For example, I was initially only putting the intervals of the form a/b for a>b and for a and b from 39 to 78 (not including primes >41 other than 73 and corresponding thusly to the 41-prime-limited add-73 77-odd-limit) but then I noticed the end of the table was sparse and some intervals were missing, so instead I put the octave-complement of each such interval too, but this made the organisation messier. It does mean however that the interval table could potentially have its size halved without any loss of information and with the only caveat that you'd have to calculate octave-complements of intervals yourself (both in terms of number of steps and in terms of JI intervals). I think my former method which lead to a more orderly organisation of odd-limit intervals per interval of 311 EDO was maybe better especially considering it lead to simpler code too.  Once I or others decide which is the better method I may start hand-prettifying the table by adding consistently-mapped odd-limit intervals or commas for empty intervals of 311 EDO in the table. One example could be that 9801/9800, 441/440 and 385/384 are all mapped to 1\311, although my concern for giving interpretations like that is there is a gargantuan number of intervals that are mapped to one or two steps of 311 EDO, so maybe leaving them blank is more elegant. --[[User:Godtone|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone|talk]]) 23:26, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
+== Categorization of redirects ==
+I see it fit to categorize temperament redirects cuz they're eventually to be expanded to full articles. For ratios redirecting to interval names, I'm not sure. They're essentially the same concept and will never be distinct articles. So the categories are duplicate, and the maintenance load also doubles. What's your take on this? [[User:FloraC|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC|talk]]) 12:52, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
+: I find it generally useful to also make alternative names findable in categories (they are italicized to distinguish them). In the index of a book, there are sometimes short references instead of page numbers (I consider the categorization of redirects to be the wiki equivalent of this). But I'm not sure the categories are useful overall. Personally, I see them more as "fire stairs" to articles. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 18:22, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
+== Step ratio terms in other languages ==
+Kite has brought up what he sees as a possible issue in hard vs. soft terms ([[Talk:TAMNAMS#Hard_and_soft_in_French.2C_German.2C_etc.|here]]) when translated to European languages. Looking at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature_names_and_translations Wikipedia page] he's linking to, there seems to be no conflict in Romance languages at least, and from my German knowledge there is no conflict between ''hart/weich'' and ''Dur/moll''. There could be other reasons literal translations of hard and soft are unsuitable, though (I don't know what [[de:Diskussion:Schrittverhältnis#Benennung|your comment]] on the German article for step ratio was pointing at). My suggestion would be to create a page for translating TAMNAMS hard and soft terms, specifically, and patiently wait for native speaker input. [[User:Inthar|Inthar]] ([[User talk:Inthar|talk]]) 14:52, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
+: Concur. --[[User:Godtone|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone|talk]]) 19:30, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
+:: Thanks for letting me know, I replied in [[Talk:TAMNAMS#Hard and soft in French, German, etc.]]. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 20:29, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
+== Maintenance bot ==
+Hi Xenwolf, I notice that we sometimes do manual cleaning which could be automated by bots, such as fixing double redirects. I stumbled upon this yesterday: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Pywikibot/redirect.py
+Do you think there's a chance it could be installed on this wiki? Unless there's already something similar available that I don't know of yet? --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 16:11, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
+: I don't think anything like this exists yet. The person who takes care of the server side installation is [[User:Tyler Henthorn|Tyler Henthorn]], maybe you can share your ideas with him. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:06, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
+== In-browser sound generation ==
+Hi Xenwolf!
+My in-browser sound generation project ([[User:Plumtree/Sound]]) is essentially ready. Could you review [[User:Plumtree/common.js]] and [[User:Plumtree/common.css]] and, if there're no issues, include those globally?
+The best option would've been [[mw:Extension:Gadgets]] for JS and [[mw:Extension:TemplateStyles]] for CSS. Alas, they aren't installed. I've asked [[User:Tyler Henthorn]] for them but his last edit was more than a year ago and it's unlikely he'll answer any time soon.
+What does JS do?
+* It reacts to clicks on HTML elements with class <code>sequence-audio</code>. When one is clicked, it reads its <code>data-sequence</code> attribute and plays the encoded pattern.
+* If <code>data-lock</code> attribute is set, it also adds the <code>sequence-audio-playing</code> class and ignores further clicks for the duration of the sequence.
+* Timbres defined by their harmonic spectra are supported. Builtins are <code>sine</code>, <code>semisine</code>, <code>flute</code>, <code>violin</code>; you can supply custom ones using <code>data-timbre-X</code> attributes.
+* A sequence consists of the following elements, separated by whitespaces:
+** <code>wait:DURATION</code> - adds DURATION ms to the global time shift, which starts at 0.
+** <code>FREQUENCY:DURATION:GAIN:SHIFT:INSTRUMENT</code> - plays FREQUENCY for DURATION ms with GAIN with timbre specified with INSTRUMENT. It starts at global shift + SHIFT ms, and global shift isn't modified. INSTRUMENT's default is <code>sine</code>; SHIFT's default is <code>0</code>.
+* For example, sequences used for interval demonstration look like this: <code>440:1000:0.1 660:1000:0.1:500 wait:2000 660:1000:0.1 440:1000:0.1:500 wait:2000 440:1000:0.1 660:1000:0.1</code>.
+* Modern browsers support Web Audio API quite well and I don't expect any compatibility issues.
+What does CSS handle?
+* Background colour of <code>.sequence-audio-button</code> elements depending on their state.
+* Cursor styles upon <code>.sequence-audio-button</code> elements so that they're interpreted as interactive.
+* Additionally, <code>.white-key</code> and <code>.black-key</code> elements have the corresponding colours. Those may be used to build interactive keyboards for ETs.
+Examples (all require [[User:Plumtree/common.js]] and [[User:Plumtree/common.css]] to be properly viewed):
+* [[User:Plumtree/Sound]] - mostly tests of intervals.
+* [[User:Plumtree/Sandbox/Interval]] - actually tests of intervals as they're going to be included into [[Template:Infobox Interval]].
+* [[User:Plumtree/Audio]] - the template which is currently the main interface for this JS.
+[[User:Plumtree|Plumtree]] ([[User talk:Plumtree|talk]]) 17:52, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
+== Thank you for reconstructing my diagram on 10648/10647 ==
+Thank you, Xenwolf, for reconstructing my diagram on the harmonisma, 10648/10647, and your helpful hint on formatting monospaced text for alignment.
+Your reformatting gave me the opportunity to spot and correct my mistakes in the original diagram, which were of course my own responsibility. Thanks to your help, the corrected diagram should hopefully help readers to visualize the relationship between the 10648/10647 and the 352/351 and 364/363. [[User:Mschulter1325|Mschulter1325]] 19:38, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
+: You're welcome, it was a pleasure to help. Shouldn't the chart be placed on page [[10648/10647]] itself after the corrections are made? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 10:03, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
+Yes, it's corrected, and I just put some final touches on tidying up the alignment, so it should be ready to go on the article's page. Many thanks for your assistance! [[User:Mschulter1325|Mschulter1325]] 04:20, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
+== Add HEJI font to CSS ==
+Hi Xenwolf,
+I'd like to add a bit of code to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] so that we can use the HEJI2Text font on the wiki (instead of relying on a bunch of SVG images, namely), but I don't have admin access so I can't do it myself. Do you think you could add it?
+<pre><nowiki>
+/* use HEJI2Text font if class="heji" */
+@font-face {
+   font-family: HEJI2Text;
+   src: url(https://plainsound.org/fonts/HEJI2Text.otf);
+}
+.heji {
+   font-family: HEJI2Text;
+}
+</nowiki></pre>
+--[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 07:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
+: Hi Fredg999, would you please try the additions needed within [[User:Fredg999/common.css|''your personal common.css'']] and prepare or collect some representative examples (maybe just links to pages)? This would also be a good basis to better understand the impact of this proposal on the site and for discussing individual points with other users. Best regards --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 18:06, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
+:: I added a few examples to [[User:Fredg999/Sandbox#HEJI2Text testing area|''my personal Sandbox page'']]. Here is a screenshot of the result: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10ZLax9RYqQg3-mQtV9YeKPC--2VmvR43/view?usp=sharing
+:: The main use case I have in mind is the [[Helmholtz-Ellis notation]] page, where we could improve the reference tables and give more examples efficiently using the HEJI font. I was thinking of adding a table that shows all symbols (a bit like the HEJI notation palette on [https://www.plainsound.org/HEJI/ Plainsound's HS CALC]), but also shows the character mapping, so that readers can learn to use the font more easily on the wiki and elsewhere.
+:: Most symbols from the [[Alternative symbols for ups and downs notation]] could also be written using the HEJI font, since it provides symbols for each combination of the standard chromatic accidentals with one, two or three up or down arrows.
+:: Many other pages about just intonation could benefit from HEJI symbols as well, such as interval tables on various EDO pages (for easy up/down symbols as a complement to their "text" version; e.g. [[22edo#Intervals]]), as well as the [[Overtone scale]] page, where notation would be another representation of the JI scales, alongside the solfege notations already present, for example.
+:: --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 03:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
+::: I added the font to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 06:52, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
+:::: Thank you! --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 07:13, 4 January 2023 (UTC)