Talk:159edo/Notation: Difference between revisions

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== My Second Idea for a Notation System ==

Okay, after talking with Sam, I now think ~~while~~ we need to make another notation system. Truth be told, I've been trying to make a notation system that is accessible for people with a background in [[24edo]] like myself this whole time, and this is the main reason for my notation systems being as complicated as they are. Nevertheless, I'm hoping to make things as intuitive as possible as well. I'm thinking that this new system should keep the traditional symbols for naturals, sharps, flats, double sharps and double flats, and that we need to make two different versions of each of the quartertone accidentals to reflect how the rastma is not tempered out, and that some of these quartertone accidentals can only be lowered, while the others can only be raised.

Okay, after talking with Sam, I now think we need to make another notation system. Truth be told, I've been trying to make a notation system that is accessible for people with a background in [[24edo]] like myself this whole time, and this is the main reason for my notation systems being as complicated as they are. Nevertheless, I'm hoping to make things as intuitive as possible as well. I'm thinking that this new system should keep the traditional symbols for naturals, sharps, flats, double sharps and double flats, and that we need to make two different versions of each of the quartertone accidentals to reflect how the rastma is not tempered out, and that some of these quartertone accidentals can only be lowered, while the others can only be raised.

One set of quartertone accidentals has the two broad cross strokes of the traditional demisharp accidental set closer together than those of the sharp accidental while keeping the same traditional "demiflat" accidental, while the "sesquisharp" accidental and the "sesquiflat" accidental in this set are similarly redesigned, and modify the base tone by an interval consisting of an apotome and a 33/32 quartertone. The second set of quartertone accidentals are also based on the traditional quartertone accidentals, and the second "demisharp" and "sesquisharp" accidentals has the two broad cross strokes set further apart than those of the sharp accidental, while the corresponding "demiflat" and "sesquiflat" accidentals each have a narrow cross stroke on their stems- the "demisharp" and "demiflat" accidentals in this set modify the base tone by a 709/704 interval, while the "sesquisharp" and "sesquiflat" accidentals in this set modify the base tone by an interval consisting of an apotome and a 709/704 interval. Furthermore, since the rastma itself is a potential JI basis for the single step of 159edo, and since combined symbols need to be deciphered, I think we need to make two new sets of symbols- one set for modification by one or two syntonic commas based on the combining arrows from Helmholtz-Ellis notation, and another pair of symbols to represent modification by a rastma. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 21:46, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

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:: Thanks for your thoughts, Flora. Besides the minor flaws (lenghts of verticals) the sharps seem okay to me, but the flats are harder. I'm not sure if sticking with the b-shape isn't the fundamental problem here. But you are experienced with fonts maybe you are the right person for the details. Maybe having three lines is for 4 accidentals each is not ideal. I did a tiny improvement right now to set the single accidental glyphs apart from each other (maybe a browser refresh will be needed). --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 06:50, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

::: For the record, if there are issues with the flat ~~accidentls~~, I'd have to say that the thickness and angle of the extra strokes on the stems of the narrow and wide flat accidentals is most likely to be the problem. Perhaps those cross strokes ought to be thicker and should set at 60-degree angles from the vertical rather than 45-degree angles. The reason I say this is that those extra strokes are what make the extra flat accidentals stand out from one another, while the shape of the rest of the accidental is what makes them ~~recognisable~~ as flats in the first place. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 14:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

::: For the record, if there are issues with the flat accidentals, I'd have to say that the thickness and angle of the extra strokes on the stems of the narrow and wide flat accidentals is most likely to be the problem. Perhaps those cross strokes ought to be thicker and should set at 60-degree angles from the vertical rather than 45-degree angles. The reason I say this is that those extra strokes are what make the extra flat accidentals stand out from one another, while the shape of the rest of the accidental is what makes them recognizable as flats in the first place. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 14:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

:::: When you said "60-degree angles from the vertical" -- did you mean this [[File:Rect949.png|24x24px]]? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 16:44, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

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::::::::: Yeah, I think that will work as long as the positioning is right. While you're at it, the strokes of all the demisharp and sesquisharp accidentals should also be fixed to have the same angle and thickness as those of the sharp symbol. Again, thank you very much for taking your time to help me do this. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 22:33, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

:::::::::: Done (remember the browser refresh if you don't see any difference) :) the extraction of single glyphs in SVG format will follow tomorrow. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 22:45, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

::::::::::: Right.

::::::: Oh, and I should have said this earlier, but thank you very much for your help in all of this. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 22:05, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

::: Oh, and I should also point out that for EDOs where the rastma is not tempered out, but the half-apotome also exists, (think [[318edo]]) the rastmic accidentals would not be used because 33/32 takes priority, and... well... because the half-apotome is not formed by tempering out the rastma in such EDOs. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:24, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Hey, Xenwolf, do you think we have time to work on this some more? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 18:33, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm asking because if you do, perhaps we can consider adding these accidentals to the mix...

[[File:Possible_159edo_Accidentals.png]]

I hope this makes sense. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 18:47, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

: Currently I have not the time to work on that. One thing that just struck me: thin horizontal lines will be a problem between staff lines. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 16:20, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

:: I kind of figured you don't have the time to work on it. Still, I want to get this done at some point. The horizontal lines can be replaced with a slightly thicker curved marking, though I can't help but wonder what that would do... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 16:44, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I updated the picture of the second group of accidentals to change the thin, straight horizontal lines to thicker, more curvy ones. Does this make a difference? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 06:17, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

: I think you should really give [https://inkscape.org/ Inkscape] a try, it's great for this kind of stuff, and there are a lot of tutorials around the web. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 19:09, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

:: Part of the problem is that it feels like I need constraints and grids and the ability to measure when drawing on the computer. So, do you like the changes I made or no? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 20:19, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Okay Xenwolf and Flora, after talking on Discord with other people about possible accidentals, I think I've arrived at a solution for a different set of accidentals for 159edo...

[[File:Quartertone Accidentals.png|1400px]]

[[File:Syntonic Accidentals.png|700px]]

[[File:Rastmic Accidentals.png|700px]]

I hope you two like these. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 22:52, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

@@ Line 131: / Line 131: @@
 == My Second Idea for a Notation System ==
-Okay, after talking with Sam, I now think while we need to make another notation system.  Truth be told, I've been trying to make a notation system that is accessible for people with a background in [[24edo]] like myself this whole time, and this is the main reason for my notation systems being as complicated as they are.  Nevertheless, I'm hoping to make things as intuitive as possible as well.  I'm thinking that this new system should keep the traditional symbols for naturals, sharps, flats, double sharps and double flats, and that we need to make two different versions of each of the quartertone accidentals to reflect how the rastma is not tempered out, and that some of these quartertone accidentals can only be lowered, while the others can only be raised.
+Okay, after talking with Sam, I now think we need to make another notation system.  Truth be told, I've been trying to make a notation system that is accessible for people with a background in [[24edo]] like myself this whole time, and this is the main reason for my notation systems being as complicated as they are.  Nevertheless, I'm hoping to make things as intuitive as possible as well.  I'm thinking that this new system should keep the traditional symbols for naturals, sharps, flats, double sharps and double flats, and that we need to make two different versions of each of the quartertone accidentals to reflect how the rastma is not tempered out, and that some of these quartertone accidentals can only be lowered, while the others can only be raised.
 One set of quartertone accidentals has the two broad cross strokes of the traditional demisharp accidental set closer together than those of the sharp accidental while keeping the same traditional "demiflat" accidental, while the "sesquisharp" accidental and the "sesquiflat" accidental in this set are similarly redesigned, and modify the base tone by an interval consisting of an apotome and a 33/32 quartertone.  The second set of quartertone accidentals are also based on the traditional quartertone accidentals, and the second "demisharp" and "sesquisharp" accidentals has the two broad cross strokes set further apart than those of the sharp accidental, while the corresponding "demiflat" and "sesquiflat" accidentals each have a narrow cross stroke on their stems- the "demisharp" and "demiflat" accidentals in this set modify the base tone by a 709/704 interval, while the "sesquisharp" and "sesquiflat" accidentals in this set modify the base tone by an interval consisting of an apotome and a 709/704 interval.  Furthermore, since the rastma itself is a potential JI basis for the single step of 159edo, and since combined symbols need to be deciphered, I think we need to make two new sets of symbols- one set for modification by one or two syntonic commas based on the combining arrows from Helmholtz-Ellis notation, and another pair of symbols to represent modification by a rastma. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 21:46, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
@@ Line 197: / Line 197: @@
 :: Thanks for your thoughts, Flora. Besides the minor flaws (lenghts of verticals) the sharps seem okay to me, but the flats are harder. I'm not sure if sticking with the b-shape isn't the fundamental problem here. But you are experienced with fonts maybe you are the right person for the details. Maybe having three lines is for 4 accidentals each is not ideal. I did a tiny improvement right now to set the single accidental glyphs apart from each other (maybe a browser refresh will be needed). --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 06:50, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
-::: For the record, if there are issues with the flat accidentls, I'd have to say that the thickness and angle of the extra strokes on the stems of the narrow and wide flat accidentals is most likely to be the problem.  Perhaps those cross strokes ought to be thicker and should set at 60-degree angles from the vertical rather than 45-degree angles.  The reason I say this is that those extra strokes are what make the extra flat accidentals stand out from one another, while the shape of the rest of the accidental is what makes them recognisable as flats in the first place. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 14:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
+::: For the record, if there are issues with the flat accidentals, I'd have to say that the thickness and angle of the extra strokes on the stems of the narrow and wide flat accidentals is most likely to be the problem.  Perhaps those cross strokes ought to be thicker and should set at 60-degree angles from the vertical rather than 45-degree angles.  The reason I say this is that those extra strokes are what make the extra flat accidentals stand out from one another, while the shape of the rest of the accidental is what makes them recognizable as flats in the first place. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 14:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 :::: When you said "60-degree angles from the vertical" -- did you mean this [[File:Rect949.png|24x24px]]? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 16:44, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
@@ Line 212: / Line 212: @@
 ::::::::: Yeah, I think that will work as long as the positioning is right.  While you're at it, the strokes of all the demisharp and sesquisharp accidentals should also be fixed to have the same angle and thickness as those of the sharp symbol.  Again, thank you very much for taking your time to help me do this. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 22:33, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
+:::::::::: Done (remember the browser refresh if you don't see any difference) :) the extraction of single glyphs in SVG format will follow tomorrow. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 22:45, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
+::::::::::: Right.
 ::::::: Oh, and I should have said this earlier, but thank you very much for your help in all of this. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 22:05, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 ::: Oh, and I should also point out that for EDOs where the rastma is not tempered out, but the half-apotome also exists, (think [[318edo]]) the rastmic accidentals would not be used because 33/32 takes priority, and... well... because the half-apotome is not formed by tempering out the rastma in such EDOs. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 15:24, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
+Hey, Xenwolf, do you think we have time to work on this some more? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 18:33, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
+I'm asking because if you do, perhaps we can consider adding these accidentals to the mix...
+[[File:Possible_159edo_Accidentals.png]]
+I hope this makes sense. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 18:47, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
+: Currently I have not the time to work on that. One thing that just struck me: thin horizontal lines will be a problem between staff lines. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 16:20, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
+:: I kind of figured you don't have the time to work on it.  Still, I want to get this done at some point.  The horizontal lines can be replaced with a slightly thicker curved marking, though I can't help but wonder what that would do... --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 16:44, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
+Okay, I updated the picture of the second group of accidentals to change the thin, straight horizontal lines to thicker, more curvy ones.  Does this make a difference? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 06:17, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
+: I think you should really give [https://inkscape.org/ Inkscape] a try, it's great for this kind of stuff, and there are a lot of tutorials around the web. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 19:09, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
+:: Part of the problem is that it feels like I need constraints and grids and the ability to measure when drawing on the computer.  So, do you like the changes I made or no? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 20:19, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
+Okay Xenwolf and Flora, after talking on Discord with other people about possible accidentals, I think I've arrived at a solution for a different set of accidentals for 159edo...
+[[File:Quartertone Accidentals.png|1400px]]
+[[File:Syntonic Accidentals.png|700px]]
+[[File:Rastmic Accidentals.png|700px]]
+I hope you two like these. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 22:52, 14 July 2021 (UTC)