Talk:Meet and join: Difference between revisions

Line 91:

::::::::: Lastly, the issue of my "user roles": is that they are set the way they are because the Wiki used to be hosted on Wikispaces. When that went down, Tyler reached out to me to see if we could migrate everything elsewhere before it collapsed. So we took it on ourselves to do that. While and my largest role was in the initial migration, the ongoing maintenance of the sysadmin stuff is really Tyler's thing, but I still contribute to occasional minor technical maintenance from time to time when I can. This is not something I really enjoyed doing, but I spent many hours doing all of it for free, or sometimes at personal cost, just to make sure the information was preserved. But none of this has anything to do with anything, because my ability to help install some new MediaWiki extension has no bearing on the contents of this article, and certainly it does not matter either way in whether or not I participate in a Discord server, and I think it's in poor taste to try to somehow use it against me to win a notation debate about the use of & vs &&. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 21:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

:::::::::: (I'm including this introductory section in both of my replies here to make sure that you see it, and because it applies to both places.) Sheesh, Mike. Please take it a little easier on me. I hope I will eventually be able to convince you that I'm your friend. Tone can be hard to read on the internet. You frequently react to the things I write in a combative way that I think is uncalled for. I think I'm a pretty chill and nice guy who thinks highly of you and hopes you will come to enjoy my presence and contributions here one day. Perhaps we should have another video chat session soon to clear some things up.

:::::::::: I believe I made myself clear in the above that I appreciate the efforts that you ''have'' already made to solicit feedback on this change. But I will express it again: I recognize those efforts and applaud you for them. Thank you for checking in with folks on Facebook about these changes.

:::::::::: Beyond this, I have suggested some addition actions I thought were appropriate for you to take, namely, posting in the Facebook group specifically designed for that purpose, and finding some way to get feedback from Discord as well. Those suggestions still stand.

:::::::::: I will also take this opportunity to again express my gratitude to you for the role you've played in the creation and maintenance of this wiki. Thank you, a thousand times over. Without your efforts, countless people in our community, including myself, would be significantly less enlightened about this fascinating theory that we all share a love for.

:::::::::: I now feel like you're twisting my actions crazily far from reality:

:::::::::: 1) I never indicated that I expected anyone to use the Discord as a prerequisite to making changes on the wiki. When, per your request, I posted on the Xenwiki Work Group on Facebook to specifically voice my suggestion to the wider group, that people should consider getting feedback from Discord because it is such an active community, I specifically said that I did not expect anyone to join Discord, that it was not in any way meant as a guideline but merely a suggestion if you wanted to selfishly de-risk your own time investment in this sort of thing, it might be a good idea. Furthermore, I personally volunteered there to be the middle man and help anyone who wanted an agent on Discord to get feedback for them. What else could I possibly do on that front?

:::::::::: 2) The fact that you perceive this as a debate that one of us will win is telling. I do not see it that way at all. I can't understand how you could get that impression. All I'm asking is that you give people who care about this sufficient opportunity to add their voices to the discussion, so that in the end we can come up with the best solution, which may or may not be one that you or I suggest ourselves. Getting my way is not an end in itself. I just want what we end up with to be high quality, and fair. I hope that makes sense now. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 04:00, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

::::: I totally agree with Sintel. That's how I've always thought of it. I've never seen "&" used for the join of monzos. Can anyone point to some places on the wiki where it's used that way? In any case, what would be the harm in swapping those to "|" as in Sintel's and my scheme. Has "|" been used previously in a way that would conflict. So I'm supporting "&" for val-join, "|" for comma-join and subgroup-join. Then "&" is temperament join and "|" is temperament meet. Then "12 & 19" can be reads as vals or as temperaments, "&" works either way. [[User:Dave Keenan|Dave Keenan]] ([[User talk:Dave Keenan|talk]]) 09:06, 23 December 2021 (UTC) Dave Keenan

Line 97:

Line 111:

::::::: Douglas: Sorry, but I'm not going to waste endless hours somehow trying to search Facebook for posts of the form "ratio & ratio." I don't even know if that kind of thing is possible given Facebook's limited search feature, and if the primary reason you want me to do so is to because you demand "evidence" are unwilling to take my word for it, then I think there's no point in discussing anything further. Much like you don't intend to call a "map" a "val," I also don't intend to never use the phrase "81/80 & 64/63" ever again, but if it makes you happy, I have added & and | to the page as the predominant convention. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 21:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

:::::::: (I'm including this introductory section in both of my replies here to make sure that you see it, and because it applies to both places.) Sheesh, Mike. Please take it a little easier on me. I hope I will eventually be able to convince you that I'm your friend. Tone can be hard to read on the internet. You frequently react to the things I write in a combative way that I think is uncalled for. I think I'm a pretty chill and nice guy who thinks highly of you and hopes you will come to enjoy my presence and contributions here one day. Perhaps we should have another video chat session soon to clear some things up.

:::::::: I can see that I wrote things in a rather matter-of-fact, not sugar-coated way, but I didn't mean to come across "demanding" evidence, and I see nothing in the words I chose that suggest I was writing in an aggressive, "demanding" type way. I hope it's clear that in order to make the best decision we can make here, it would help the community here to have some further information, specifically about the extent of this usage you've described. I was merely seeking to gauge the extent of the situation: ''how common'' is this. It seemed quite likely to me that you could produce an extensive body of work with this usage, in which case I would seriously reconsider my position.

:::::::: Also, I didn't mean to come across like I didn't believe you. I very much believe you, and I don't see any words I wrote that indicate otherwise.

:::::::: It seems like the usage you describe is somewhat extensive (at least your subgroup temperament page, https://en.xen.wiki/w/Subgroup_Temperament_Families,_Relationships,_and_Genes, as you mentioned on Facebook), but apparently not extensive enough to completely problematize our proposal. So it does make me happy that you have added & and | to the page as the predominant convention. Thank you for doing that. All my best. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 04:00, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

== Suggestion to add a helpful image ==

@@ Line 91: / Line 91: @@
 ::::::::: Lastly, the issue of my "user roles": is that they are set the way they are because the Wiki used to be hosted on Wikispaces. When that went down, Tyler reached out to me to see if we could migrate everything elsewhere before it collapsed. So we took it on ourselves to do that. While and my largest role was in the initial migration, the ongoing maintenance of the sysadmin stuff is really Tyler's thing, but I still contribute to occasional minor technical maintenance from time to time when I can. This is not something I really enjoyed doing, but I spent many hours doing all of it for free, or sometimes at personal cost, just to make sure the information was preserved. But none of this has anything to do with anything, because my ability to help install some new MediaWiki extension has no bearing on the contents of this article, and certainly it does not matter either way in whether or not I participate in a Discord server, and I think it's in poor taste to try to somehow use it against me to win a notation debate about the use of & vs &&. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 21:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
+:::::::::: (I'm including this introductory section in both of my replies here to make sure that you see it, and because it applies to both places.) Sheesh, Mike. Please take it a little easier on me. I hope I will eventually be able to convince you that I'm your friend. Tone can be hard to read on the internet. You frequently react to the things I write in a combative way that I think is uncalled for. I think I'm a pretty chill and nice guy who thinks highly of you and hopes you will come to enjoy my presence and contributions here one day. Perhaps we should have another video chat session soon to clear some things up.
+:::::::::: I believe I made myself clear in the above that I appreciate the efforts that you ''have'' already made to solicit feedback on this change. But I will express it again: I recognize those efforts and applaud you for them. Thank you for checking in with folks on Facebook about these changes.
+:::::::::: Beyond this, I have suggested some addition actions I thought were appropriate for you to take, namely, posting in the Facebook group specifically designed for that purpose, and finding some way to get feedback from Discord as well. Those suggestions still stand.
+:::::::::: I will also take this opportunity to again express my gratitude to you for the role you've played in the creation and maintenance of this wiki. Thank you, a thousand times over. Without your efforts, countless people in our community, including myself, would be significantly less enlightened about this fascinating theory that we all share a love for.
+:::::::::: I now feel like you're twisting my actions crazily far from reality:
+:::::::::: 1) I never indicated that I expected anyone to use the Discord as a prerequisite to making changes on the wiki. When, per your request, I posted on the Xenwiki Work Group on Facebook to specifically voice my suggestion to the wider group, that people should consider getting feedback from Discord because it is such an active community, I specifically said that I did not expect anyone to join Discord, that it was not in any way meant as a guideline but merely a suggestion if you wanted to selfishly de-risk your own time investment in this sort of thing, it might be a good idea. Furthermore, I personally volunteered there to be the middle man and help anyone who wanted an agent on Discord to get feedback for them. What else could I possibly do on that front?
+:::::::::: 2) The fact that you perceive this as a debate that one of us will win is telling. I do not see it that way at all. I can't understand how you could get that impression. All I'm asking is that you give people who care about this sufficient opportunity to add their voices to the discussion, so that in the end we can come up with the best solution, which may or may not be one that you or I suggest ourselves. Getting my way is not an end in itself. I just want what we end up with to be high quality, and fair. I hope that makes sense now. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 04:00, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 ::::: I totally agree with Sintel. That's how I've always thought of it. I've never seen "&" used for the join of monzos. Can anyone point to some places on the wiki where it's used that way? In any case, what would be the harm in swapping those to "|" as in Sintel's and my scheme. Has "|" been used previously in a way that would conflict. So I'm supporting "&" for val-join, "|" for comma-join and subgroup-join. Then "&" is temperament join and "|" is temperament meet. Then "12 & 19" can be reads as vals or as temperaments, "&" works either way. [[User:Dave Keenan|Dave Keenan]] ([[User talk:Dave Keenan|talk]]) 09:06, 23 December 2021 (UTC) Dave Keenan
@@ Line 97: / Line 111: @@
 ::::::: Douglas: Sorry, but I'm not going to waste endless hours somehow trying to search Facebook for posts of the form "ratio & ratio." I don't even know if that kind of thing is possible given Facebook's limited search feature, and if the primary reason you want me to do so is to because you demand "evidence" are unwilling to take my word for it, then I think there's no point in discussing anything further. Much like you don't intend to call a "map" a "val," I also don't intend to never use the phrase "81/80 & 64/63" ever again, but if it makes you happy, I have added & and | to the page as the predominant convention. [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]] ([[User talk:Mike Battaglia|talk]]) 21:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
+:::::::: (I'm including this introductory section in both of my replies here to make sure that you see it, and because it applies to both places.) Sheesh, Mike. Please take it a little easier on me. I hope I will eventually be able to convince you that I'm your friend. Tone can be hard to read on the internet. You frequently react to the things I write in a combative way that I think is uncalled for. I think I'm a pretty chill and nice guy who thinks highly of you and hopes you will come to enjoy my presence and contributions here one day. Perhaps we should have another video chat session soon to clear some things up.
+:::::::: I can see that I wrote things in a rather matter-of-fact, not sugar-coated way, but I didn't mean to come across "demanding" evidence, and I see nothing in the words I chose that suggest I was writing in an aggressive, "demanding" type way. I hope it's clear that in order to make the best decision we can make here, it would help the community here to have some further information, specifically about the extent of this usage you've described. I was merely seeking to gauge the extent of the situation: ''how common'' is this. It seemed quite likely to me that you could produce an extensive body of work with this usage, in which case I would seriously reconsider my position.
+:::::::: Also, I didn't mean to come across like I didn't believe you. I very much believe you, and I don't see any words I wrote that indicate otherwise.
+:::::::: It seems like the usage you describe is somewhat extensive (at least your subgroup temperament page, https://en.xen.wiki/w/Subgroup_Temperament_Families,_Relationships,_and_Genes, as you mentioned on Facebook), but apparently not extensive enough to completely problematize our proposal. So it does make me happy that you have added & and | to the page as the predominant convention. Thank you for doing that. All my best. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 04:00, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 == Suggestion to add a helpful image ==