User talk:Rperlner: Difference between revisions

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::::: In other news, I experimented with replacing the meantone scale with a JI-like scale in Locrian Fugue, using 53 EDO and up and down arrow accidentals (and adjusting for modulations/transposition). I also tried strengthening the effect and getting the smaller minor 3rds to approximate 7/6 using the same accidentals and 34 or 22 EDO tuning. The problem with the obvious 1 : 16/15 : 6/5 : 4/3 : 64/45 =? 7/5 : 8/5 : 9/5 : 2 Locrian scale is that there's a prominent leap of a wolf 4th from D to A in the second measure of the subject, which sounds wonky. I also tried correcting it to a perfect fourth (raising the A by a comma when in B Locrian), but the whole thing still seems a bit off balance, so I still prefer 12 EDO for this song. An interesting experiment, nonetheless. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 02:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

:::::: I'm sorry, I should have mentioned both that I use wolf fifths and wolf fourths deliberately and that they are not simply mistuned knock-offs of the 3/2 perfect fifth and the 4/3 perfect fourth, rather, they are intervals with their own distinct character and functionality, and they should be treated as such- a lesson I've had to learn the hard way, and a lesson that I should have shared with you earlier. From the feedback I've gotten, I'd say they have a way of predisposing the chords they are found in towards having certain functions. For example, the 40/27 wolf fifth between A and E in the key of C major has a way of making deceptive cadences all the more powerful on account of the subtle tension provided by their seemingly "off" sound- as if it hammers home to the listener that "we're not done yet". This same subtle tension means that whenever this chord appears, there is bound to be either an increase in tension, or a decrease in tension. For example, a 1/1-32/27-40/27 minor chord on the sixth scale degree of C major (root related to the Tonic by 27/26) will usually be followed up by either G-Dominant-7 (1/1-5/4-3/2-16/9) or B-Diminished (1/1-6/5-32/27) for an increase in tension, or alternatively, F-Major (1/1-81/64-3/2) or D-Minor (1/1-32/27-3/2) for a decrease in tension. A similar functionality exists for the open wolf dyad on the third scale degree of Locrian, as the 1/1-1024/693-2/1 open wolf dyad on the third scale degree of B Locrian (root related to the Tonic by 77/64) will usually be followed up by either F-Major (1/1-3/2-5/2) for an increase in tension, or alternatively, B-Minor (1/1-77/64-2/1) or G-Open (1/1-385/256-2/1) for a decrease in tension. Such is the way that wolf fifths in general seem to function the best. With that, I guess it can be said that one of the main lessons to be learned here is that Locrian's behavior in non-meantone settings is markedly different in some ways from its behavior in meantone settings, and that people's expectations as to how Locrian ought to function can get in the way very easily. That said, I think that if you wish to express things like anger, anxiety and lament, Locrian is just the mode for you. This is especially true in non-meantone settings, as those strident wolf fifths only add to the intensity of the aforementioned feelings, enhancing the mode's more well-known usage in heavy metal and other genres like it. Conversely, if you wish to pull something with a more Baroque-style using Locrian in a non-meantone setting, I'd say this is more difficult, but ultimately worth it if you're trying to express anger, anxiety and lament. Therefore, I'd recommend trying to write more Baroque-style pieces in Locrian using some of the advice I've given you- especially concerning how wolf fifths are best used- as I want to see what comes of that sort of experimentation. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 03:46, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

:::::: I'm sorry, I should have mentioned both that I use wolf fifths and wolf fourths deliberately and that they are not simply mistuned knock-offs of the 3/2 perfect fifth and the 4/3 perfect fourth, rather, they are intervals with their own distinct character and functionality, and they should be treated as such- a lesson I've had to learn the hard way, and a lesson that I should have shared with you earlier. From the feedback I've gotten, I'd say they have a way of predisposing the chords they are found in towards having certain functions. For example, the 40/27 wolf fifth between A and E in the key of C major has a way of making deceptive cadences all the more powerful on account of the subtle tension provided by their seemingly "off" sound- as if it hammers home to the listener that "we're not done yet". This same subtle tension means that whenever this chord appears, there is bound to be either an increase in tension, or a decrease in tension. For example, a 1/1-32/27-40/27 minor chord on the sixth scale degree of C major (root related to the Tonic by 27/26) will usually be followed up by either G-Dominant-7 (1/1-5/4-3/2-16/9) or B-Diminished (1/1-6/5-64/45) for an increase in tension, or alternatively, F-Major (1/1-81/64-3/2) or D-Minor (1/1-32/27-3/2) for a decrease in tension. A similar functionality exists for the open wolf dyad on the third scale degree of Locrian, as the 1/1-1024/693-2/1 open wolf dyad on the third scale degree of B Locrian (root related to the Tonic by 77/64) will usually be followed up by either F-Major (1/1-3/2-5/2) for an increase in tension, or alternatively, B-Minor (1/1-77/64-2/1) or G-Open (1/1-385/256-2/1) for a decrease in tension. Such is the way that wolf fifths in general seem to function the best. With that, I guess it can be said that one of the main lessons to be learned here is that Locrian's behavior in non-meantone settings is markedly different in some ways from its behavior in meantone settings, and that people's expectations as to how Locrian ought to function can get in the way very easily. That said, I think that if you wish to express things like anger, anxiety and lament, Locrian is just the mode for you. This is especially true in non-meantone settings, as those strident wolf fifths only add to the intensity of the aforementioned feelings, enhancing the mode's more well-known usage in heavy metal and other genres like it. Conversely, if you wish to pull something with a more Baroque-style using Locrian in a non-meantone setting, I'd say this is more difficult, but ultimately worth it if you're trying to express anger, anxiety and lament. Therefore, I'd recommend trying to write more Baroque-style pieces in Locrian using some of the advice I've given you- especially concerning how wolf fifths are best used- as I want to see what comes of that sort of experimentation. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 03:46, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

::::::: I should point out that the D A wolf fourth leap does kind of work the way you say it should in that the A immediately resolves to the tonic B. However, the resolution doesn't seem very effective. Resolving the wolf fourth outward to the G sounds much smoother to my ear, but of course G is not the tonic I'm looking for. Again I see this as a scale structure thing, where the wolf fourth is wide due to being made from two 9/8 wholetones and a 16/15 semitone instead of a 9/8 a 10/9 and a 16/15. It seems more effective to resolve the interval by expanding out by a 10/9 wholetone and restoring balance than contracting to a minor third by taking back the extra 9/8 whole tone. Anyway, I'll let you know if I ever make another attempt to make a non-meantone diatonic fugue work. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 04:12, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

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== Counterpoint in Microtonal Contexts ==

I was just doing some research on counterpoint, and it seems we need to talk to [[Wikipedia:Guerino Mazzola|Guerino Mazzola]] to try and find out what he knows about counterpoint in the microtonal realm. We should also bring up our findings on the wolf fifth to him and see what he thinks- especially the bit about the functions of the wolf fifth that we've found. I'm particularly curious to hear what he has to say about the idea that the wolf fifth with its distinct function and subtle tension as well as the options for follow up that we've found. For example, the idea of a 1/1-32/27-40/27 minor chord on the sixth scale degree of C major (root related to the Tonic by 27/26) being followed up by either G-Dominant-7 (1/1-5/4-3/2-16/9) or B-Diminished (1/1-6/5-32/27) for an increase in tension, or alternatively, F-Major (1/1-81/64-3/2) or D-Minor (1/1-32/27-3/2) for a decrease in tension. While we're at it, we should talk about Treble-Down Tonality and the effects that has on things like counterpoint. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 03:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

I was just doing some research on counterpoint, and it seems we need to talk to [[Wikipedia:Guerino Mazzola|Guerino Mazzola]] to try and find out what he knows about counterpoint in the microtonal realm. We should also bring up our findings on the wolf fifth to him and see what he thinks- especially the bit about the functions of the wolf fifth that we've found. I'm particularly curious to hear what he has to say about the idea that the wolf fifth with its distinct function and subtle tension as well as the options for follow up that we've found. For example, the idea of a 1/1-32/27-40/27 minor chord on the sixth scale degree of C major (root related to the Tonic by 27/26) being followed up by either G-Dominant-7 (1/1-5/4-3/2-16/9) or B-Diminished (1/1-6/5-64/45) for an increase in tension, or alternatively, F-Major (1/1-81/64-3/2) or D-Minor (1/1-32/27-3/2) for a decrease in tension. While we're at it, we should talk about Treble-Down Tonality and the effects that has on things like counterpoint. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 03:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Personally I think Mazzola might be surprised to know that someone is interested not only in the [[40/27]] wolf fifth as a distinct musical interval and the potential that interval offers as a dissonance requiring resolution, but also in the possibilities of [[11/8]] and [[16/11]]. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 03:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Personally I think Mazzola might be surprised to know that someone is interested not only in the [[40/27]] wolf fifth as a distinct musical interval and the potential that interval offers as a dissonance requiring resolution, but also in the possibilities of [[11/8]] and [[16/11]], as well as the idea of Treble-Down Tonality. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 03:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

@@ Line 459: / Line 459: @@
 ::::: In other news, I experimented with replacing the meantone scale with a JI-like scale in Locrian Fugue, using 53 EDO and up and down arrow accidentals (and adjusting for modulations/transposition). I also tried strengthening the effect and getting the smaller minor 3rds to approximate 7/6 using the same accidentals and 34 or 22 EDO tuning. The problem with the obvious 1 : 16/15 : 6/5 : 4/3 : 64/45 =? 7/5 : 8/5 : 9/5 : 2 Locrian scale is that there's a prominent leap of a wolf 4th from D to A in the second measure of the subject, which sounds wonky. I also tried correcting it to a perfect fourth (raising the A by a comma when in B Locrian), but the whole thing still seems a bit off balance, so I still prefer 12 EDO for this song. An interesting experiment, nonetheless. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 02:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
-:::::: I'm sorry, I should have mentioned both that I use wolf fifths and wolf fourths deliberately and that they are not simply mistuned knock-offs of the 3/2 perfect fifth and the 4/3 perfect fourth, rather, they are intervals with their own distinct character and functionality, and they should be treated as such- a lesson I've had to learn the hard way, and a lesson that I should have shared with you earlier.  From the feedback I've gotten, I'd say they have a way of predisposing the chords they are found in towards having certain functions.  For example, the 40/27 wolf fifth between A and E in the key of C major has a way of making deceptive cadences all the more powerful on account of the subtle tension provided by their seemingly "off" sound- as if it hammers home to the listener that "we're not done yet".  This same subtle tension means that whenever this chord appears, there is bound to be either an increase in tension, or a decrease in tension.  For example, a 1/1-32/27-40/27 minor chord on the sixth scale degree of C major (root related to the Tonic by 27/26) will usually be followed up by either G-Dominant-7 (1/1-5/4-3/2-16/9) or B-Diminished (1/1-6/5-32/27) for an increase in tension, or alternatively, F-Major (1/1-81/64-3/2) or D-Minor (1/1-32/27-3/2) for a decrease in tension.  A similar functionality exists for the open wolf dyad on the third scale degree of Locrian, as the 1/1-1024/693-2/1 open wolf dyad on the third scale degree of B Locrian (root related to the Tonic by 77/64) will usually be followed up by either F-Major (1/1-3/2-5/2) for an increase in tension, or alternatively, B-Minor (1/1-77/64-2/1) or G-Open (1/1-385/256-2/1) for a decrease in tension.  Such is the way that wolf fifths in general seem to function the best.  With that, I guess it can be said that one of the main lessons to be learned here is that Locrian's behavior in non-meantone settings is markedly different in some ways from its behavior in meantone settings, and that people's expectations as to how Locrian ought to function can get in the way very easily.  That said, I think that if you wish to express things like anger, anxiety and lament, Locrian is just the mode for you.  This is especially true in non-meantone settings, as those strident wolf fifths only add to the intensity of the aforementioned feelings, enhancing the mode's more well-known usage in heavy metal and other genres like it.  Conversely, if you wish to pull something with a more Baroque-style using Locrian in a non-meantone setting, I'd say this is more difficult, but ultimately worth it if you're trying to express anger, anxiety and lament.  Therefore, I'd recommend trying to write more Baroque-style pieces in Locrian using some of the advice I've given you- especially concerning how wolf fifths are best used- as I want to see what comes of that sort of experimentation. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 03:46, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
+:::::: I'm sorry, I should have mentioned both that I use wolf fifths and wolf fourths deliberately and that they are not simply mistuned knock-offs of the 3/2 perfect fifth and the 4/3 perfect fourth, rather, they are intervals with their own distinct character and functionality, and they should be treated as such- a lesson I've had to learn the hard way, and a lesson that I should have shared with you earlier.  From the feedback I've gotten, I'd say they have a way of predisposing the chords they are found in towards having certain functions.  For example, the 40/27 wolf fifth between A and E in the key of C major has a way of making deceptive cadences all the more powerful on account of the subtle tension provided by their seemingly "off" sound- as if it hammers home to the listener that "we're not done yet".  This same subtle tension means that whenever this chord appears, there is bound to be either an increase in tension, or a decrease in tension.  For example, a 1/1-32/27-40/27 minor chord on the sixth scale degree of C major (root related to the Tonic by 27/26) will usually be followed up by either G-Dominant-7 (1/1-5/4-3/2-16/9) or B-Diminished (1/1-6/5-64/45) for an increase in tension, or alternatively, F-Major (1/1-81/64-3/2) or D-Minor (1/1-32/27-3/2) for a decrease in tension.  A similar functionality exists for the open wolf dyad on the third scale degree of Locrian, as the 1/1-1024/693-2/1 open wolf dyad on the third scale degree of B Locrian (root related to the Tonic by 77/64) will usually be followed up by either F-Major (1/1-3/2-5/2) for an increase in tension, or alternatively, B-Minor (1/1-77/64-2/1) or G-Open (1/1-385/256-2/1) for a decrease in tension.  Such is the way that wolf fifths in general seem to function the best.  With that, I guess it can be said that one of the main lessons to be learned here is that Locrian's behavior in non-meantone settings is markedly different in some ways from its behavior in meantone settings, and that people's expectations as to how Locrian ought to function can get in the way very easily.  That said, I think that if you wish to express things like anger, anxiety and lament, Locrian is just the mode for you.  This is especially true in non-meantone settings, as those strident wolf fifths only add to the intensity of the aforementioned feelings, enhancing the mode's more well-known usage in heavy metal and other genres like it.  Conversely, if you wish to pull something with a more Baroque-style using Locrian in a non-meantone setting, I'd say this is more difficult, but ultimately worth it if you're trying to express anger, anxiety and lament.  Therefore, I'd recommend trying to write more Baroque-style pieces in Locrian using some of the advice I've given you- especially concerning how wolf fifths are best used- as I want to see what comes of that sort of experimentation. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 03:46, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 ::::::: I should point out that the D A wolf fourth leap does kind of work the way you say it should in that the A immediately resolves to the tonic B. However, the resolution doesn't seem very effective. Resolving the wolf fourth outward to the G sounds much smoother to my ear, but of course G is not the tonic I'm looking for. Again I see this as a scale structure thing, where the wolf fourth is wide due to being made from two 9/8 wholetones and a 16/15 semitone instead of a 9/8 a 10/9 and a 16/15. It seems more effective to resolve the interval by expanding out by a 10/9 wholetone and restoring balance than contracting to a minor third by taking back the extra 9/8 whole tone. Anyway, I'll let you know if I ever make another attempt to make a non-meantone diatonic fugue work. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 04:12, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
@@ Line 501: / Line 501: @@
 == Counterpoint in Microtonal Contexts ==
-I was just doing some research on counterpoint, and it seems we need to talk to [[Wikipedia:Guerino Mazzola|Guerino Mazzola]] to try and find out what he knows about counterpoint in the microtonal realm.  We should also bring up our findings on the wolf fifth to him and see what he thinks- especially the bit about the functions of the wolf fifth that we've found.  I'm particularly curious to hear what he has to say about the idea that the wolf fifth with its distinct function and subtle tension as well as the options for follow up that we've found.  For example, the idea of a 1/1-32/27-40/27 minor chord on the sixth scale degree of C major (root related to the Tonic by 27/26) being followed up by either G-Dominant-7 (1/1-5/4-3/2-16/9) or B-Diminished (1/1-6/5-32/27) for an increase in tension, or alternatively, F-Major (1/1-81/64-3/2) or D-Minor (1/1-32/27-3/2) for a decrease in tension.  While we're at it, we should talk about Treble-Down Tonality and the effects that has on things like counterpoint. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 03:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
+I was just doing some research on counterpoint, and it seems we need to talk to [[Wikipedia:Guerino Mazzola|Guerino Mazzola]] to try and find out what he knows about counterpoint in the microtonal realm.  We should also bring up our findings on the wolf fifth to him and see what he thinks- especially the bit about the functions of the wolf fifth that we've found.  I'm particularly curious to hear what he has to say about the idea that the wolf fifth with its distinct function and subtle tension as well as the options for follow up that we've found.  For example, the idea of a 1/1-32/27-40/27 minor chord on the sixth scale degree of C major (root related to the Tonic by 27/26) being followed up by either G-Dominant-7 (1/1-5/4-3/2-16/9) or B-Diminished (1/1-6/5-64/45) for an increase in tension, or alternatively, F-Major (1/1-81/64-3/2) or D-Minor (1/1-32/27-3/2) for a decrease in tension.  While we're at it, we should talk about Treble-Down Tonality and the effects that has on things like counterpoint. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 03:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
-Personally I think Mazzola might be surprised to know that someone is interested not only in the [[40/27]] wolf fifth as a distinct musical interval and the potential that interval offers as a dissonance requiring resolution, but also in the possibilities of [[11/8]] and [[16/11]]. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 03:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
+Personally I think Mazzola might be surprised to know that someone is interested not only in the [[40/27]] wolf fifth as a distinct musical interval and the potential that interval offers as a dissonance requiring resolution, but also in the possibilities of [[11/8]] and [[16/11]], as well as the idea of Treble-Down Tonality. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 03:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)