User talk:Rperlner: Difference between revisions

Line 473:

::::::::: The voice leading I think you're suggesting (Perfect 5th - Wolf 5th - Diminished 5th by upward parallel stepwise motion) sounds acceptable to my ear. It does not have the same clunky feeling as true parallel perfect 5ths between otherwise independent voices. The resolution of the diminished 5th by parallel motion to a perfect 5th is somewhat more questionable, as it is not the normal way to resolve this dissonance (normal is inward motion to a major or minor 3rd), although it may work in some contexts. There are of course ways to remove parallel 5ths between root position chords e.g. if G is voiced from bass to soprano as GDGB and A minor is voiced as ACEA. (Note, for the next chord, a root position diminished triad is not really a thing in common-practice 4-part voice leading texture, so it should probably be extended either to a (half/fully)-diminished 7th chord or a first inversion dominant 7th chord.) I actually prefer the parallel voice leading through the wolf 5th to this treatment, though (assuming you're not using a tempering that removes the wolf, or correcting the wolf to a perfect 5th) since otherwise the wolf sounds like an unresolved dissonance to me. As for whether this would work in a fugue, I think it might -- although having too much parallel motion in the voice leading creates a similar effect to doubling a voice in parallel 3rds -- which you absolutely can do in a fugue, but it's a special effect of sorts and shouldn't be used as the main texture. Rather, in a fugue, there should be a lot of contrary motion and voices moving in contrasting rhythmic patterns. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 19:15, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::::::: Well, to be frank since music of the common practice era was virtually all in some sort of meantone or other, and the distinct qualities and musical properties of wolf fifths were not recognized back then, it sounds to me like we can regard root position diminished triads as something unique to non-meantone tunings, just like with the wolf fifths and wolf fourths themselves. Besides, diminished triads do have other follow ups- most ~~noatably~~, B-Diminished in root position can be followed up by the second inversion of E-minor (1/1-6/5-3/2 in root position; root note related to the Tonic by 5/4). --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 20:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::::::: Well, to be frank since music of the common practice era was virtually all in some sort of meantone or other (as far as I know), and the distinct qualities and musical properties of wolf fifths were not recognized back then, it sounds to me like we can regard root position diminished triads as something unique to non-meantone tunings, just like with the wolf fifths and wolf fourths themselves- particularly since this sort of appearance of a diminished triad in root position is only really facilitated by the prior usage of the wolf fifth as in the example I provided. Besides, diminished triads do have other follow ups- most notably, B-Diminished in root position can be followed up by the second inversion of E-minor (1/1-6/5-3/2 in root position; root note related to the Tonic by 5/4). From the aforementioned second inversion E-minor, we can then use a first inversion A-Wolf-Minor as a follow up, and then use a sort of G-Dominant-7. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 21:29, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

:: I know this may sound hard to believe, but in all my experimenting with different intervals, I've found that the wrong kind of interval involving small-number-ratios between the wrong two notes actually works against the formation of a sense of tonality. Conversely, a more tense-sounding interval in the right location- yes, even if the interval in question happens to be [[40/27]]- can actually strengthen your sense of tonality. Yes, intervals with small-number-ratios are vital to establishing tonality, but because of their power, they have to be well-placed within the tonal system, or otherwise the sense of tonality shifts when you don't want it to. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 473: / Line 473: @@
 ::::::::: The voice leading I think you're suggesting (Perfect 5th - Wolf 5th - Diminished 5th by upward parallel stepwise motion) sounds acceptable to my ear. It does not have the same clunky feeling as true parallel perfect 5ths between otherwise independent voices. The resolution of the diminished 5th by parallel motion to a perfect 5th is somewhat more questionable, as it is not the normal way to resolve this dissonance (normal is inward motion to a major or minor 3rd), although it may work in some contexts. There are of course ways to remove parallel 5ths between root position chords e.g. if G is voiced from bass to soprano as GDGB and A minor is voiced as ACEA. (Note, for the next chord, a root position diminished triad is not really a thing in common-practice 4-part voice leading texture, so it should probably be extended either to a (half/fully)-diminished 7th chord or a first inversion dominant 7th chord.) I actually prefer the parallel voice leading through the wolf 5th to this treatment, though (assuming you're not using a tempering that removes the wolf, or correcting the wolf to a perfect 5th) since otherwise the wolf sounds like an unresolved dissonance to me. As for whether this would work in a fugue, I think it might -- although having too much parallel motion in the voice leading creates a similar effect to doubling a voice in parallel 3rds -- which you absolutely can do in a fugue, but it's a special effect of sorts and shouldn't be used as the main texture. Rather, in a fugue, there should be a lot of contrary motion and voices moving in contrasting rhythmic patterns. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 19:15, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
-:::::::::: Well, to be frank since music of the common practice era was virtually all in some sort of meantone or other, and the distinct qualities and musical properties of wolf fifths were not recognized back then, it sounds to me like we can regard root position diminished triads as something unique to non-meantone tunings, just like with the wolf fifths and wolf fourths themselves.  Besides, diminished triads do have other follow ups- most noatably, B-Diminished in root position can be followed up by the second inversion of E-minor (1/1-6/5-3/2 in root position; root note related to the Tonic by 5/4). --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 20:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
+:::::::::: Well, to be frank since music of the common practice era was virtually all in some sort of meantone or other (as far as I know), and the distinct qualities and musical properties of wolf fifths were not recognized back then, it sounds to me like we can regard root position diminished triads as something unique to non-meantone tunings, just like with the wolf fifths and wolf fourths themselves- particularly since this sort of appearance of a diminished triad in root position is only really facilitated by the prior usage of the wolf fifth as in the example I provided.  Besides, diminished triads do have other follow ups- most notably, B-Diminished in root position can be followed up by the second inversion of E-minor (1/1-6/5-3/2 in root position; root note related to the Tonic by 5/4).  From the aforementioned second inversion E-minor, we can then use a first inversion A-Wolf-Minor as a follow up, and then use a sort of G-Dominant-7. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 21:29, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 :: I know this may sound hard to believe, but in all my experimenting with different intervals, I've found that the wrong kind of interval involving small-number-ratios between the wrong two notes actually works against the formation of a sense of tonality.  Conversely, a more tense-sounding interval in the right location- yes, even if the interval in question happens to be [[40/27]]- can actually strengthen your sense of tonality.  Yes, intervals with small-number-ratios are vital to establishing tonality, but because of their power, they have to be well-placed within the tonal system, or otherwise the sense of tonality shifts when you don't want it to. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)