User talk:Rperlner: Difference between revisions

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::::::::: A brief comment on the Locrian circle progression: Root motion by 5ths between open 5th chords presents a pretty limited range of options for voice leading. Voices can either be held fixed, move by step, or leap by a perfect 4th or 5th. The former may be able to be decorated by a neighbor tone figure, the step may be treated as a 9-8 suspension, and the fourth leap may be filled in with passing tones (although this will put the 3rd back in the first chord.) This leaves out a number of the more common contrapuntal decorations you find in the baroque style (e.g. the 7-6 and 4-3 suspensions and their standard elaborations as well as the humble single passing tone.) I'd also note that, except at cadences, I don't think much about what chords I'm using when writing in a fugal style. It's very much a chords from voice leading process as opposed to vice-versa. I guess this isn't necessarily at odds with your advice to use the circle progression at the end of a lengthy passage (i.e. around the cadence). --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 19:58, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::::::: Ah. Locrian mode seems to have a way of being more restricted in terms available chord progressions than other modes, and cadences often need more of a set up in Locrian than in some of the others. I'm not saying that your approach to the voice leading and chord progressions is totally off base- it's not- but you do kind of have to plan ahead as you set up your voice leading so that you keep things within the confines of Locrian's style of tonality. This is all the more true for those types of fugue in which you have a main leitmotif that repeats itself at random times throughout your fugue as per [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO8i5D2uz84 Fugue in G Minor by Bach]. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 20:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::::: I just had a thought... Since the wolf fifth is a different interval from the perfect fifth with different properties, perhaps a succession of chords in root position such as the sequence G-Major (1/1-5/4-3/2), A-Wolf-Minor (1/1-32/27-40/27), B-Diminished (1/1-6/5-32/27), C-Major (1/1-5/4-3/2) in the key of C-Major could potentially be allowed in non-meantone settings, seeing as it seems to be that only two successive chords with parallel perfect fifths or octaves lead to the loss of independence among the different voices. Do you think this is a viable technique for things like fugues? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 23:12, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

::::::::: The voice leading I think you're suggesting (Perfect 5th - Wolf 5th - Diminished 5th by upward parallel stepwise motion) sounds acceptable to my ear. It does not have the same clunky feeling as true parallel perfect 5ths between otherwise independent voices. The resolution of the diminished 5th by parallel motion to a perfect 5th is somewhat more questionable, as it is not the normal way to resolve this dissonance (normal is inward motion to a major or minor 3rd), although it may work in some contexts. There are of course ways to remove parallel 5ths between root position chords e.g. if G is voiced from bass to soprano as GDGB and A minor is voiced as ACEA. (Note, for the next chord, a root position diminished triad is not really a thing in common-practice 4-part voice leading texture, so it should probably be extended either to a (half/fully)-diminished 7th chord or a first inversion dominant 7th chord.) I actually prefer the parallel voice leading through the wolf 5th to this treatment, though (assuming you're not using a tempering that removes the wolf, or correcting the wolf to a perfect 5th) since otherwise the wolf sounds like an unresolved dissonance to me. As for whether this would work in a fugue, I think it might -- although having too much parallel motion in the voice leading creates a similar effect to doubling a voice in parallel 3rds -- which you absolutely can do in a fugue, but it's a special effect of sorts and shouldn't be used as the main texture. Rather, in a fugue, there should be a lot of contrary motion and voices moving in contrasting rhythmic patterns. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 19:15, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::::::: Well, to be frank since music of the common practice era was virtually all in some sort of meantone or other, and the distinct qualities and musical properties of wolf fifths were not recognized back then, it sounds to me like we can regard root position diminished triads as something unique to non-meantone tunings, just like with the wolf fifths and wolf fourths themselves. Besides, diminished triads do have other follow ups- most noatably, B-Diminished in root position can be followed up by the second inversion of E-minor (1/1-6/5-3/2 in root position; root note related to the Tonic by 5/4). --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 20:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

:: I know this may sound hard to believe, but in all my experimenting with different intervals, I've found that the wrong kind of interval involving small-number-ratios between the wrong two notes actually works against the formation of a sense of tonality. Conversely, a more tense-sounding interval in the right location- yes, even if the interval in question happens to be [[40/27]]- can actually strengthen your sense of tonality. Yes, intervals with small-number-ratios are vital to establishing tonality, but because of their power, they have to be well-placed within the tonal system, or otherwise the sense of tonality shifts when you don't want it to. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

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 ::::::::: A brief comment on the Locrian circle progression: Root motion by 5ths between open 5th chords presents a pretty limited range of options for voice leading. Voices can either be held fixed, move by step, or leap by a perfect 4th or 5th. The former may be able to be decorated by a neighbor tone figure, the step may be treated as a 9-8 suspension, and the fourth leap may be filled in with passing tones (although this will put the 3rd back in the first chord.) This leaves out a number of the more common contrapuntal decorations you find in the baroque style (e.g. the 7-6 and 4-3 suspensions and their standard elaborations as well as the humble single passing tone.) I'd also note that, except at cadences, I don't think much about what chords I'm using when writing in a fugal style. It's very much a chords from voice leading process as opposed to vice-versa. I guess this isn't necessarily at odds with your advice to use the circle progression at the end of a lengthy passage (i.e. around the cadence). --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 19:58, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
+:::::::::: Ah.  Locrian mode seems to have a way of being more restricted in terms available chord progressions than other modes, and cadences often need more of a set up in Locrian than in some of the others.  I'm not saying that your approach to the voice leading and chord progressions is totally off base- it's not- but you do kind of have to plan ahead as you set up your voice leading so that you keep things within the confines of Locrian's style of tonality.  This is all the more true for those types of fugue in which you have a main leitmotif that repeats itself at random times throughout your fugue as per [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO8i5D2uz84 Fugue in G Minor by Bach]. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 20:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 :::::::: I just had a thought...  Since the wolf fifth is a different interval from the perfect fifth with different properties, perhaps a succession of chords in root position such as the sequence G-Major (1/1-5/4-3/2), A-Wolf-Minor (1/1-32/27-40/27), B-Diminished (1/1-6/5-32/27), C-Major (1/1-5/4-3/2) in the key of C-Major could potentially be allowed in non-meantone settings, seeing as it seems to be that only two successive chords with parallel perfect fifths or octaves lead to the loss of independence among the different voices.  Do you think this is a viable technique for things like fugues? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 23:12, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 ::::::::: The voice leading I think you're suggesting (Perfect 5th - Wolf 5th - Diminished 5th by upward parallel stepwise motion) sounds acceptable to my ear. It does not have the same clunky feeling as true parallel perfect 5ths between otherwise independent voices. The resolution of the diminished 5th by parallel motion to a perfect 5th is somewhat more questionable, as it is not the normal way to resolve this dissonance (normal is inward motion to a major or minor 3rd), although it may work in some contexts. There are of course ways to remove parallel 5ths between root position chords e.g. if G is voiced from bass to soprano as GDGB and A minor is voiced as ACEA. (Note, for the next chord, a root position diminished triad is not really a thing in common-practice 4-part voice leading texture, so it should probably be extended either to a (half/fully)-diminished 7th chord or a first inversion dominant 7th chord.) I actually prefer the parallel voice leading through the wolf 5th to this treatment, though (assuming you're not using a tempering that removes the wolf, or correcting the wolf to a perfect 5th) since otherwise the wolf sounds like an unresolved dissonance to me. As for whether this would work in a fugue, I think it might -- although having too much parallel motion in the voice leading creates a similar effect to doubling a voice in parallel 3rds -- which you absolutely can do in a fugue, but it's a special effect of sorts and shouldn't be used as the main texture. Rather, in a fugue, there should be a lot of contrary motion and voices moving in contrasting rhythmic patterns. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 19:15, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
+:::::::::: Well, to be frank since music of the common practice era was virtually all in some sort of meantone or other, and the distinct qualities and musical properties of wolf fifths were not recognized back then, it sounds to me like we can regard root position diminished triads as something unique to non-meantone tunings, just like with the wolf fifths and wolf fourths themselves.  Besides, diminished triads do have other follow ups- most noatably, B-Diminished in root position can be followed up by the second inversion of E-minor (1/1-6/5-3/2 in root position; root note related to the Tonic by 5/4). --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 20:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 :: I know this may sound hard to believe, but in all my experimenting with different intervals, I've found that the wrong kind of interval involving small-number-ratios between the wrong two notes actually works against the formation of a sense of tonality.  Conversely, a more tense-sounding interval in the right location- yes, even if the interval in question happens to be [[40/27]]- can actually strengthen your sense of tonality.  Yes, intervals with small-number-ratios are vital to establishing tonality, but because of their power, they have to be well-placed within the tonal system, or otherwise the sense of tonality shifts when you don't want it to. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)