User talk:Rperlner: Difference between revisions

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:: Okay, I just listened to your Locrian fugue, and I'll admit I had a hard time identifying the Tonic in the chord progressions of this piece. One thing I should take note of quickly is that the Flat-Five- which I call the Tyrant- operates best in Locrian mode when it approximates 64/45 or something in that vicinity. This is because the chord based on the Tyrant actually relies on the interval between the Tonic and the Tyrant in order to provide the strong sense of contrast that makes Locrian mode work best in non-meantone EDOs, the harmonic connection between the Tonic and 64/45 also helps immensely. Hence this is one of the techniques I used in "Space Tour" for writing the Locrian section in 53edo. When the Flat-Five interval is less than 600 cents wide, it actually sounds like it wants to expand rather than contract according to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone#Common_Uses the relevant section of Wikipedia's article on the Tritone], and the reasoning behind this as stated in the article actually makes sense. Thus, in order to actually have the kinds of harmonic motion that lends itself to establishing a more solid sense of Tonality, you might want to consider a different tuning, and more carefully consider my comments in regards to Locrian chord progressions. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:39, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

:::Hi Aura. I have considered your advice, but I am not convinced it can be applied to writing a fugue (at least not a fugue in the style of JS Bach, which is roughly what I was going for, aside from the use of a modal subject.) First of all, fugues generally modulate a lot, so it is expected and desirable that there be passages where the tonic is not immediately clear. As long as the tonality is clear at the beginning and end, transitions are smooth, and the piece continually feels like it's going somewhere (whether the destination is clear or not), it should be effective. This applies to a number of other forms in the common practice period as well, such as Sonata Allegro form and scherzo. Second of all, fugues rely on transposing a melody by a variety of intervals other than an octave. This can be difficult to do if the scale structure is irregular. I'm not going to say it's impossible to do with 5-limit-JI-like diatonics as you have suggested, but it's much harder and there's not much precedent for it in the repertoire. Fugues have almost exclusively used Meantone tunings and Meantone-like well temperaments. Where scales like you suggest for diatonic modes have been used effectively is in Indian Raga music, but these are typically played over a drone of a perfect fifth on the tonic -- about as static a harmony as one could possibly imagine. From what I've seen of your works, they are not quite that harmonically static, but they are still neither polyphonic (you seem to use simple melody and accompaniment texture) nor especially modulatory (you modulate sometimes, but they seem more like brief transitions between long stable passages than the driving force behind the structure of a piece.) I would be interested to see how you would approach more polyphonic textures, and forms with more harmonic development. Finally, I'd like to make a brief point about the proper resolution of augmented 4ths and diminished 5ths in the common practice style: It seems pretty clear to me that the proper resolution has more to do with the scale structure providing context for the interval, than the tuning of the interval itself. The fundamental issue is that if two voices a certain interval apart resolve inward by step to a third, then the original interval is, by definition, some sort of 5th. It just so happens that in meantone temperaments the diminished 5th is larger than the augmented 4th, as a side effect of making 5-limit thirds more pure. But, this is not always the case. e.g. Using a historically accurate tuning for Bach's Well Tempered Clavier, the preludes and fugues in remote keys will have augmented 4ths larger than diminished 5ths, but you can check for yourself that they still overwhelmingly resolve the standard way. I also tested the limits of this phenomenon by rendering scale segments outlining a diminished 5th and augmented 4th (BCDEF and FGAB) in extremely non-meantone temperaments using Musescore, and seeing what dyad sounds best after them. In both cases it was C raised by a comma and E, as would be expected from common practice rules about resolving tritones. Tuning may have some effect, but scale structure is far more important. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 04:03, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

:: I know this may sound hard to believe, but in all my experimenting with different intervals, I've found that the wrong kind of interval involving small-number-ratios between the wrong two notes actually works against the formation of a sense of tonality. Conversely, a more tense-sounding interval in the right location- yes, even if the interval in question happens to be [[40/27]]- can actually strengthen your sense of tonality. Yes, intervals with small-number-ratios are vital to establishing tonality, but because of their power, they have to be well-placed within the tonal system, or otherwise the sense of tonality shifts when you don't want it to. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

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 :: Okay, I just listened to your Locrian fugue, and I'll admit I had a hard time identifying the Tonic in the chord progressions of this piece.  One thing I should take note of quickly is that the Flat-Five- which I call the Tyrant- operates best in Locrian mode when it approximates 64/45 or something in that vicinity.  This is because the chord based on the Tyrant actually relies on the interval between the Tonic and the Tyrant in order to provide the strong sense of contrast that makes Locrian mode work best in non-meantone EDOs, the harmonic connection between the Tonic and 64/45 also helps immensely.  Hence this is one of the techniques I used in "Space Tour" for writing the Locrian section in 53edo.  When the Flat-Five interval is less than 600 cents wide, it actually sounds like it wants to expand rather than contract according to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone#Common_Uses the relevant section of Wikipedia's article on the Tritone], and the reasoning behind this as stated in the article actually makes sense.  Thus, in order to actually have the kinds of harmonic motion that lends itself to establishing a more solid sense of Tonality, you might want to consider a different tuning, and more carefully consider my comments in regards to Locrian chord progressions. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:39, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
+:::Hi Aura. I have considered your advice, but I am not convinced it can be applied to writing a fugue (at least not a fugue in the style of JS Bach, which is roughly what I was going for, aside from the use of a modal subject.) First of all, fugues generally modulate a lot, so it is expected and desirable that there be passages where the tonic is not immediately clear. As long as the tonality is clear at the beginning and end, transitions are smooth, and the piece continually feels like it's going somewhere (whether the destination is clear or not), it should be effective. This applies to a number of other forms in the common practice period as well, such as Sonata Allegro form and scherzo. Second of all, fugues rely on transposing a melody by a variety of intervals other than an octave. This can be difficult to do if the scale structure is irregular. I'm not going to say it's impossible to do with 5-limit-JI-like diatonics as you have suggested, but it's much harder and there's not much precedent for it in the repertoire. Fugues have almost exclusively used Meantone tunings and Meantone-like well temperaments. Where scales like you suggest for diatonic modes have been used effectively is in Indian Raga music, but these are typically played over a drone of a perfect fifth on the tonic -- about as static a harmony as one could possibly imagine. From what I've seen of your works, they are not quite that harmonically static, but they are still neither polyphonic (you seem to use simple melody and accompaniment texture) nor especially modulatory (you modulate sometimes, but they seem more like brief transitions between long stable passages than the driving force behind the structure of a piece.) I would be interested to see how you would approach more polyphonic textures, and forms with more harmonic development. Finally, I'd like to make a brief point about the proper resolution of augmented 4ths and diminished 5ths in the common practice style: It seems pretty clear to me that the proper resolution has more to do with the scale structure providing context for the interval, than the tuning of the interval itself. The fundamental issue is that if two voices a certain interval apart resolve inward by step to a third, then the original interval is, by definition, some sort of 5th. It just so happens that in meantone temperaments the diminished 5th is larger than the augmented 4th, as a side effect of making 5-limit thirds more pure. But, this is not always the case. e.g. Using a historically accurate tuning for Bach's Well Tempered Clavier, the preludes and fugues in remote keys will have augmented 4ths larger than diminished 5ths, but you can check for yourself that they still overwhelmingly resolve the standard way. I also tested the limits of this phenomenon by rendering scale segments outlining a diminished 5th and augmented 4th (BCDEF and FGAB) in extremely non-meantone temperaments using Musescore, and seeing what dyad sounds best after them. In both cases it was C raised by a comma and E, as would be expected from common practice rules about resolving tritones. Tuning may have some effect, but scale structure is far more important. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 04:03, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 :: I know this may sound hard to believe, but in all my experimenting with different intervals, I've found that the wrong kind of interval involving small-number-ratios between the wrong two notes actually works against the formation of a sense of tonality.  Conversely, a more tense-sounding interval in the right location- yes, even if the interval in question happens to be [[40/27]]- can actually strengthen your sense of tonality.  Yes, intervals with small-number-ratios are vital to establishing tonality, but because of their power, they have to be well-placed within the tonal system, or otherwise the sense of tonality shifts when you don't want it to. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)