Superpyth: Difference between revisions

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Since the generator is a perfect fifth, superpyth can be notated using the same standard [[chain-of-fifths notation]] that is also used for [[meantone]], with the understanding that sharps are sharper than flats (for example, A♯ is sharper than B♭) just like in [[Pythagorean tuning]], in contrast to meantone where sharps are flatter than or equal to the corresponding flats. [[22edo|13\22]] (~1/4 septimal comma) and [[27edo|16\27]] (~1/3 septimal comma) are the most common tunings of the generator.

If intervals of [[5/1|5]] are desired, the 5th harmonic is canonically mapped to +9 generators through tempering out [[245/243]], so [[5/4]] is an augmented second (e.g. C–D♯, a limma-flat major third). Therefore superpyth is the "opposite" of meantone in several different ways: most notably, meantone (including [[12edo]]) has the fifth tuned flat so that intervals of [[harmonic]] 5 are simple while intervals of [[7/1|7]] are complex, while superpyth has the fifth tuned sharp so that intervals of 7 are simple while intervals of 5 are complex. This mapping works between 22edo and [[5edo]] (though it rapidly becomes inaccurate past 27edo), as tunings flatter than 22edo map [[7/5]] wider than [[10/7]], and tunings sharper than 5edo map 8/7 wider than 7/6 (among many other things).

If intervals of [[5/1|5]] are desired, the 5th harmonic is canonically mapped to +9 generators through tempering out [[245/243]], so [[5/4]] is an augmented second (e.g. C–D♯, a limma-flat major third). Therefore superpyth is the "opposite" of meantone in several different ways: most notably, meantone (including [[12edo]]) has the fifth tuned flat so that intervals of [[harmonic]] 5 are simple while intervals of [[7/1|7]] are complex, while superpyth has the fifth tuned sharp so that intervals of 7 are simple while intervals of 5 are complex.

For a tuning between 27edo and [[32edo]], the 5th harmonic can be mapped to -18 generators, resulting in [[quasiultra]], or for a tuning sharper than 32edo, +14 generators, resulting in [[ultrapyth]]. For a tuning flat of 22edo, the 5th harmonic can be mapped to -13 generators to get [[quasisuper]].

If intervals of 11 are desired, the canonical way is to map [[11/8]] to +16 generators, or a doubly augmented second (C–D𝄪), tempering out [[100/99]]. A simpler but less accurate way to map it is to −6 generators, or a diminished fifth (C–G♭), by tempering out [[99/98]]. The latter is called '''suprapyth''', a name coined by [[Mike Battaglia]] in 2011<ref>[https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_96882.html#96895 Yahoo! Tuning Group | ''A few full 11-limit 896/891 temperaments'']</ref>. The [[2.3.7.11 subgroup]] restriction of suprapyth, known as [[supra]], is also notable. The two mappings unite on [[22edo]].

If intervals of 11 are desired, the canonical way is to map [[11/8]] to +16 generators, or a doubly augmented second (C–D𝄪), tempering out [[100/99]]~~. 27edo is now a definitive upper bound, as sharper tunings map 11/8 wider than 7/5~~. A simpler but less accurate way to map it is to −6 generators, or a diminished fifth (C–G♭), by tempering out [[99/98]]. The latter is called '''suprapyth''', a name coined by [[Mike Battaglia]] in 2011<ref>[https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_96882.html#96895 Yahoo! Tuning Group | ''A few full 11-limit 896/891 temperaments'']</ref>. The ~~two mappings unite on [[22edo]]. Note that suprapyth only works in 22edo, as sharper tunings swap the sizes of [[11/10]] and~~ [[~~12/11]], while flatter tunings don't work as discussed above. However, by keeping the~~ 2.3.7.11 ~~mapping~~ of suprapyth ~~(simply called~~ [[supra]]~~) and using the quasisuper mapping of 5~~, ~~we get~~ [[~~quasisupra~~]]~~, which has a flexible tuning range~~.

If intervals of 13 are desired, 13/8 is mapped to +13 generators, or a doubly augmented fourth (C–F𝄪), by tempering out [[31213/31104]]. In practice, however, this mapping only works in [[27edo]], as flatter tunings swap the sizes of [[13/12]] and [[14/13]]. An alternative mapping is -14 generators (known as [[uberpyth]]), or a doubly diminished octave (C–C𝄫), by tempering out [[9604/9477]]. This has a more flexible range, but the 13 tends to be tuned very sharp except in 27edo. A more practical option is to split the sharp ~3/2 into two ~[[16/13]]'s, which results in [[beatles]], and has an alternative mapping of primes 5 and 11. Alternatively, one can keep the superpyth mappings of 5 and 11 to get [[archytas clan #Thomas|thomas]].

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In general, we would want to consider 3 somewhat more important than 7, and 7 somewhat more important than 9; in meantone, similar principles imply that an optimum is to be found sharp of 1/4-comma, though flat of [[1/5-comma meantone|1/5-comma]]. In archy, these place it sharper than 1/4-comma but flatter than 1/3-comma, which is supported by the standard [[CTE]] and [[CWE]] metrics. In fact, 22edo is slightly sharp of 1/4-comma (though still flat of the CTE optimum) and therefore pushes in the more accurate direction given the above discussion. 2/7-comma superpyth is particularly notable since it tunes the 7/6 and 9/7 equally sharp and 3/2 twice as sharp as the thirds; [[71edo]] (709.859{{c}}) and [[93edo]] with its sharp fifth of 709.677{{c}} come very close to forming closed systems of 2/7-comma.

27edo is also the point where superpyth tunes 5/4 to the familiar 400{{c}} major third of [[12edo]], and in sharper tunings different mappings of 5/4 arise with more accuracy (see [[quasiultra]] and [[ultrapyth]]), somewhat analogous to [[19edo]] (which represents [[1/3-comma meantone]] and is on the edge between septimal meantone and [[flattone]]). The same goes for flatter tunings than 22edo (see [[quasisuper]] and [[dominant (temperament)|dominant]]). Furthermore, the [[11-limit]] canonical extension works strictly within 22edo and 27e-edo, with 22edo conflating 11/10 with 12/11, and 27e-edo conflating 11/8 with 7/5.

27edo is also the point where superpyth tunes 5/4 to the familiar 400{{c}} major third of [[12edo]], and in sharper tunings different mappings of 5/4 arise with more accuracy (see [[quasiultra]] and [[ultrapyth]]), somewhat analogous to [[19edo]] (which represents [[1/3-comma meantone]] and is on the edge between septimal meantone and [[flattone]]). The same goes for flatter tunings than 22edo (see [[quasisuper]] and [[dominant (temperament)|dominant]]), which map [[7/5]] wider than [[10/7]] in the superpyth mapping. Furthermore, the [[11-limit]] canonical extension works strictly within 22edo and 27e-edo, with 22edo conflating 11/10 with 12/11 as well as 7/5 and 10/7, and 27e-edo conflating 11/8 with 7/5. Suprapyth, on the other hand, only works in 22edo, as sharper tunings map [[11/10]] wider than [[12/11]].

Tunings flatter than 1/4-comma archy, such as 1/5-comma (close to [[39edo]]), 1/6-comma, … are analogous to the historical "modified meantones" ([[1/6-comma meantone|1/6-comma]], [[1/7-comma meantone|1/7-comma]], …), as they prioritize the tuning of 3/2 more than the accuracy of septimal harmony. The ~~alternative~~ 11~~-limit extension, suprapyth~~, and ~~an alternative extension to~~ 5~~, quasisuper~~, work best for tunings in the range of ~~17edo~~ to ~~22edo~~.

Tunings flatter than 1/4-comma archy, such as 1/5-comma (close to [[39edo]]), 1/6-comma, … are analogous to the historical "modified meantones" ([[1/6-comma meantone|1/6-comma]], [[1/7-comma meantone|1/7-comma]], …), as they prioritize the tuning of 3/2 more than the accuracy of septimal harmony. The [[supra]] mapping of the [[2.3.7.11 subgroup]], and the quasisuper mapping of 5, work best for tunings in the range of 17c-edo to 22-edo.

A case can also be made for tuning archy even sharper than 27edo, which involves the notion of splitting the error of 4/3 into that of 8/7 and 7/6. This is a similar logic to Zarlino's preference for [[2/7-comma meantone]], treating [[~]][[6:7:8]] as the fundamental chord of the 2.3.7 subgroup, and in this case would imply 2/5-comma archy, where [[49/48]] is tuned justly, and 8/7 and 7/6 are both 1/5 a septimal comma off, and which is closely approximated by [[32edo]]. Unlike in the case of meantone, [[CEE]] optimization agrees with the notion of such a sharp tuning, where 3 is twice as sharp as 7. In this range, the best extension to prime 5 is ultrapyth.

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 Since the generator is a perfect fifth, superpyth can be notated using the same standard [[chain-of-fifths notation]] that is also used for [[meantone]], with the understanding that sharps are sharper than flats (for example, A♯ is sharper than B♭) just like in [[Pythagorean tuning]], in contrast to meantone where sharps are flatter than or equal to the corresponding flats. [[22edo|13\22]] (~1/4 septimal comma) and [[27edo|16\27]] (~1/3 septimal comma) are the most common tunings of the generator.
-If intervals of [[5/1|5]] are desired, the 5th harmonic is canonically mapped to +9 generators through tempering out [[245/243]], so [[5/4]] is an augmented second (e.g. C–D♯, a limma-flat major third). Therefore superpyth is the "opposite" of meantone in several different ways: most notably, meantone (including [[12edo]]) has the fifth tuned flat so that intervals of [[harmonic]] 5 are simple while intervals of [[7/1|7]] are complex, while superpyth has the fifth tuned sharp so that intervals of 7 are simple while intervals of 5 are complex. This mapping works between 22edo and [[5edo]] (though it rapidly becomes inaccurate past 27edo), as tunings flatter than 22edo map [[7/5]] wider than [[10/7]], and tunings sharper than 5edo map 8/7 wider than 7/6 (among many other things).
+If intervals of [[5/1|5]] are desired, the 5th harmonic is canonically mapped to +9 generators through tempering out [[245/243]], so [[5/4]] is an augmented second (e.g. C–D♯, a limma-flat major third). Therefore superpyth is the "opposite" of meantone in several different ways: most notably, meantone (including [[12edo]]) has the fifth tuned flat so that intervals of [[harmonic]] 5 are simple while intervals of [[7/1|7]] are complex, while superpyth has the fifth tuned sharp so that intervals of 7 are simple while intervals of 5 are complex.
-For a tuning between 27edo and [[32edo]], the 5th harmonic can be mapped to -18 generators, resulting in [[quasiultra]], or for a tuning sharper than 32edo, +14 generators, resulting in [[ultrapyth]]. For a tuning flat of 22edo, the 5th harmonic can be mapped to -13 generators to get [[quasisuper]].
+If intervals of 11 are desired, the canonical way is to map [[11/8]] to +16 generators, or a doubly augmented second (C–D𝄪), tempering out [[100/99]]. A simpler but less accurate way to map it is to −6 generators, or a diminished fifth (C–G♭), by tempering out [[99/98]]. The latter is called '''suprapyth''', a name coined by [[Mike Battaglia]] in 2011<ref>[https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_96882.html#96895 Yahoo! Tuning Group | ''A few full 11-limit 896/891 temperaments'']</ref>. The [[2.3.7.11 subgroup]] restriction of suprapyth, known as [[supra]], is also notable. The two mappings unite on [[22edo]].
-If intervals of 11 are desired, the canonical way is to map [[11/8]] to +16 generators, or a doubly augmented second (C–D𝄪), tempering out [[100/99]]. 27edo is now a definitive upper bound, as sharper tunings map 11/8 wider than 7/5. A simpler but less accurate way to map it is to −6 generators, or a diminished fifth (C–G♭), by tempering out [[99/98]]. The latter is called '''suprapyth''', a name coined by [[Mike Battaglia]] in 2011<ref>[https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_96882.html#96895 Yahoo! Tuning Group | ''A few full 11-limit 896/891 temperaments'']</ref>. The two mappings unite on [[22edo]]. Note that suprapyth only works in 22edo, as sharper tunings swap the sizes of [[11/10]] and [[12/11]], while flatter tunings don't work as discussed above. However, by keeping the 2.3.7.11 mapping of suprapyth (simply called [[supra]]) and using the quasisuper mapping of 5, we get [[quasisupra]], which has a flexible tuning range.
 If intervals of 13 are desired, 13/8 is mapped to +13 generators, or a doubly augmented fourth (C–F𝄪), by tempering out [[31213/31104]]. In practice, however, this mapping only works in [[27edo]], as flatter tunings swap the sizes of [[13/12]] and [[14/13]]. An alternative mapping is -14 generators (known as [[uberpyth]]), or a doubly diminished octave (C–C𝄫), by tempering out [[9604/9477]]. This has a more flexible range, but the 13 tends to be tuned very sharp except in 27edo. A more practical option is to split the sharp ~3/2 into two ~[[16/13]]'s, which results in [[beatles]], and has an alternative mapping of primes 5 and 11. Alternatively, one can keep the superpyth mappings of 5 and 11 to get [[archytas clan #Thomas|thomas]].
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 In general, we would want to consider 3 somewhat more important than 7, and 7 somewhat more important than 9; in meantone, similar principles imply that an optimum is to be found sharp of 1/4-comma, though flat of [[1/5-comma meantone|1/5-comma]]. In archy, these place it sharper than 1/4-comma but flatter than 1/3-comma, which is supported by the standard [[CTE]] and [[CWE]] metrics. In fact, 22edo is slightly sharp of 1/4-comma (though still flat of the CTE optimum) and therefore pushes in the more accurate direction given the above discussion. 2/7-comma superpyth is particularly notable since it tunes the 7/6 and 9/7 equally sharp and 3/2 twice as sharp as the thirds; [[71edo]] (709.859{{c}}) and [[93edo]] with its sharp fifth of 709.677{{c}} come very close to forming closed systems of 2/7-comma.
-edo is also the point where superpyth tunes 5/4 to the familiar 400{{c}} major third of [[12edo]], and in sharper tunings different mappings of 5/4 arise with more accuracy (see [[quasiultra]] and [[ultrapyth]]), somewhat analogous to [[19edo]] (which represents [[1/3-comma meantone]] and is on the edge between septimal meantone and [[flattone]]). The same goes for flatter tunings than 22edo (see [[quasisuper]] and [[dominant (temperament)|dominant]]). Furthermore, the [[11-limit]] canonical extension works strictly within 22edo and 27e-edo, with 22edo conflating 11/10 with 12/11, and 27e-edo conflating 11/8 with 7/5.
+edo is also the point where superpyth tunes 5/4 to the familiar 400{{c}} major third of [[12edo]], and in sharper tunings different mappings of 5/4 arise with more accuracy (see [[quasiultra]] and [[ultrapyth]]), somewhat analogous to [[19edo]] (which represents [[1/3-comma meantone]] and is on the edge between septimal meantone and [[flattone]]). The same goes for flatter tunings than 22edo (see [[quasisuper]] and [[dominant (temperament)|dominant]]), which map [[7/5]] wider than [[10/7]] in the superpyth mapping. Furthermore, the [[11-limit]] canonical extension works strictly within 22edo and 27e-edo, with 22edo conflating 11/10 with 12/11 as well as 7/5 and 10/7, and 27e-edo conflating 11/8 with 7/5. Suprapyth, on the other hand, only works in 22edo, as sharper tunings map [[11/10]] wider than [[12/11]].
-Tunings flatter than 1/4-comma archy, such as 1/5-comma (close to [[39edo]]), 1/6-comma, … are analogous to the historical "modified meantones" ([[1/6-comma meantone|1/6-comma]], [[1/7-comma meantone|1/7-comma]], …), as they prioritize the tuning of 3/2 more than the accuracy of septimal harmony. The alternative 11-limit extension, suprapyth, and an alternative extension to 5, quasisuper, work best for tunings in the range of 17edo to 22edo.
+Tunings flatter than 1/4-comma archy, such as 1/5-comma (close to [[39edo]]), 1/6-comma, … are analogous to the historical "modified meantones" ([[1/6-comma meantone|1/6-comma]], [[1/7-comma meantone|1/7-comma]], …), as they prioritize the tuning of 3/2 more than the accuracy of septimal harmony. The [[supra]] mapping of the [[2.3.7.11 subgroup]], and the quasisuper mapping of 5, work best for tunings in the range of 17c-edo to 22-edo.
 A case can also be made for tuning archy even sharper than 27edo, which involves the notion of splitting the error of 4/3 into that of 8/7 and 7/6. This is a similar logic to Zarlino's preference for [[2/7-comma meantone]], treating [[~]][[6:7:8]] as the fundamental chord of the 2.3.7 subgroup, and in this case would imply 2/5-comma archy, where [[49/48]] is tuned justly, and 8/7 and 7/6 are both 1/5 a septimal comma off, and which is closely approximated by [[32edo]]. Unlike in the case of meantone, [[CEE]] optimization agrees with the notion of such a sharp tuning, where 3 is twice as sharp as 7. In this range, the best extension to prime 5 is ultrapyth.