User talk:TallKite: Difference between revisions

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Kite, I know that you have much more experience in microtones than I do, so I would like you to take a look at my new microtonal theory, [[User:Userminusone/Intervallic Polarity|Intervallic Polarity]]. This is something that I think has useful implications, but right now, its definition is a bit shaky and also quite subjective. If you are willing, I would really appreciate it if you could give me your thoughts on this theory or maybe even help me refine and expand upon its definition. Best regards, [[User:Userminusone|Userminusone]] ([[User talk:Userminusone|talk]]) 21:56, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

: Yeah, this looks alright. It's probably best as a loose categorization rather than a strict ranking. It's a bit reminiscent of color notation, because IMO two ratios separated by 3/2 or 4/3 tend to have the same quality, as long as the ratios aren't too far away in the lattice. So I have wa, yo, gu, zo, ru etc, which could also be called 3-limit, 5-over, 5-under, 7-over and 7-under. Your cleanly plain ones are the nearby 3-limit intervals. Dirtily plain are further away. For lightly warm I think distinguishing between 5-over and 5-under might be good. They feel like separate categories to me. Likewise dirtily dissonant might distinguish between fourthward and fifthward.

: Darkly warm and overly bright are basically 7-over and 7-under. But 14/9 is in the latter group. It does indeed sound less consonant than 7/4 and 7/6, so it seems reasonable to put it in that group. Maybe what's going on is its proximity to the powerful 3/2 ratio makes it feel like a sharp 3/2 rather than a flat 8/5. I agree that microtonal "strangeness" seems to be based on how far the note is from pythagorean or 12-equal intervals, at least in Western culture.

: 10/7 and 7/5 are tricky. 7/5 is only 8¢ away from 45/32, which to me feels quite 5-over, very similar to 15/8. So 7/5 sort of has that leading-tone quality alongside its septimal nature. And that's the thing. We don't hear ratios, we hear cents and then we deduce the ratios. And unless you've really trained your ears, it's hard to hear that 8¢. And you probably can't count on your listeners hearing it.

: For 11-limit, consider a chain of neutral 3rds centered on the unison: m3-hd5-m7-n2-P4-n6-P1-n3-P5-n7-M2-hA4-M6 where hd = half-dim and hA = half-aug. Consider the 6 intervals hd5-n2-n6-n3-n7-hA4. Coldly suspended seems to mean the central part of this chain. Warmly suspended seems to mean the further away parts. Except hd5 = 16/11 gets its own category. Again, this might be because 3/2 is so powerful, 16/11 sounds more like a very flat 3/2 than an interval in its own right. Note that there's a small comma 243/242 which tends to blur the difference between 11-over and 11-under.

: So your categories seem to correspond to various regions of the lattice, which makes sense to me. Not sure I understand the positive/negative classification. Personally I loosely classify imperfect intervals as supermajor-major-neutral-minor-subminor, 5ths as superperfect-perfect-halfdim-dim-(subdim) and 4ths as (superaug)-aug-halfaug-perfect-subperfect. So basically 5-limit and deviations from there, very 31-edo-like. One could add submajor, superminor, superperfect 4th, etc. to get it down to 3-limit, very 41-edo-like. If you sharpen the 5th, then in the 3-limit chain of 5ths major sounds like supermajor and minor sounds subminor. If you flatten it, you get submajor and superminor, and if you flatten a lot, neutral. Is that the logic behind positive/negative? If so, that might be a better way to describe it, rather than referring to edos. Also note that to get 11/8 and 16/11, you are presumably flattening the 5th by a quartertone. This makes the major 2nd sound minor, and the major 3rd sound diminished! --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 07:23, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

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 Kite, I know that you have much more experience in microtones than I do, so I would like you to take a look at my new microtonal theory, [[User:Userminusone/Intervallic Polarity|Intervallic Polarity]]. This is something that I think has useful implications, but right now, its definition is a bit shaky and also quite subjective. If you are willing, I would really appreciate it if you could give me your thoughts on this theory or maybe even help me refine and expand upon its definition. Best regards, [[User:Userminusone|Userminusone]] ([[User talk:Userminusone|talk]]) 21:56, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
+: Yeah, this looks alright. It's probably best as a loose categorization rather than a strict ranking. It's a bit reminiscent of color notation, because IMO two ratios separated by 3/2 or 4/3 tend to have the same quality, as long as the ratios aren't too far away in the lattice. So I have wa, yo, gu, zo, ru etc, which could also be called 3-limit, 5-over, 5-under, 7-over and 7-under. Your cleanly plain ones are the nearby 3-limit intervals. Dirtily plain are further away. For lightly warm I think distinguishing between 5-over and 5-under might be good. They feel like separate categories to me. Likewise dirtily dissonant might distinguish between fourthward and fifthward.
+: Darkly warm and overly bright are basically 7-over and 7-under. But 14/9 is in the latter group. It does indeed sound less consonant than 7/4 and 7/6, so it seems reasonable to put it in that group. Maybe what's going on is its proximity to the powerful 3/2 ratio makes it feel like a sharp 3/2 rather than a flat 8/5. I agree that microtonal "strangeness" seems to be based on how far the note is from pythagorean or 12-equal intervals, at least in Western culture.
+: 10/7 and 7/5 are tricky. 7/5 is only 8¢ away from 45/32, which to me feels quite 5-over, very similar to 15/8. So 7/5 sort of has that leading-tone quality alongside its septimal nature. And that's the thing. We don't hear ratios, we hear cents and then we deduce the ratios. And unless you've really trained your ears, it's hard to hear that 8¢. And you probably can't count on your listeners hearing it.
+: For 11-limit, consider a chain of neutral 3rds centered on the unison: m3-hd5-m7-n2-P4-n6-P1-n3-P5-n7-M2-hA4-M6 where hd = half-dim and hA = half-aug. Consider the 6 intervals hd5-n2-n6-n3-n7-hA4. Coldly suspended seems to mean the central part of this chain. Warmly suspended seems to mean the further away parts. Except hd5 = 16/11 gets its own category. Again, this might be because 3/2 is so powerful, 16/11 sounds more like a very flat 3/2 than an interval in its own right. Note that there's a small comma 243/242 which tends to blur the difference between 11-over and 11-under.
+: So your categories seem to correspond to various regions of the lattice, which makes sense to me. Not sure I understand the positive/negative classification. Personally I loosely classify imperfect intervals as supermajor-major-neutral-minor-subminor, 5ths as superperfect-perfect-halfdim-dim-(subdim) and 4ths as (superaug)-aug-halfaug-perfect-subperfect. So basically 5-limit and deviations from there, very 31-edo-like. One could add submajor, superminor, superperfect 4th, etc. to get it down to 3-limit, very 41-edo-like. If you sharpen the 5th, then in the 3-limit chain of 5ths major sounds like supermajor and minor sounds subminor. If you flatten it, you get submajor and superminor, and if you flatten a lot, neutral. Is that the logic behind positive/negative? If so, that might be a better way to describe it, rather than referring to edos. Also note that to get 11/8 and 16/11, you are presumably flattening the 5th by a quartertone. This makes the major 2nd sound minor, and the major 3rd sound diminished! --[[User:TallKite|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite|talk]]) 07:23, 2 August 2021 (UTC)