Talk:Marvel temperaments: Difference between revisions

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I found the redirect [[Negripent]] pointing to the section [[Marvel temperaments #Negri]] where nothing can be found about "Negripent" (also nowhere else in this article). --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 11:35, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

: I just stumbled across this issue myself! I did a little research and I think I figured out what's going on here.

:Without ever really thinking about it before, I suppose I'd always assumed that "negripent" meant something along the lines of "black-like", with the "negr-" prefix and "-ent" suffix; I never thought of an explanation for the "p", but I must have vaguely assumed that it was some European language's idiosyncrasy. Anyway, that's not it at all.

:* It turns out that the "negri" part is for someone named John Negri: https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_3774.html#3813 I see that this information is found on the wiki here: [[Temperament_names#Negri]]. Sintel questions whether John Negri is real here: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Talk:Temperament_names. I do find evidence that he is real, though (and will alert Sintel to this). The paper Paul references here (https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_31054.html#31065) is almost certainly "The Nineteen-Tone System as Ten Plus Nine", which is on pages 11-13 of Volume 5, Number 3 (Winter 1986-1987) of Interval magazine (https://interval.xentonic.org/tables-of-contents.html). This is corroborated by Graham Breed's site here: http://x31eq.com/catalog.htm And here's a couple links with a record of John Negri's performance at AFMM with the Blue Guitar Ensemble: https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_15414.html#15414, and https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_14441.html#14441

:* As for the "pent" part, that was meant to distinguish the 5-limit version of this temperament from its 7-limit extension, which was called "negrisept": https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_11629.html#11662. So it's actually the Greek numerical prefix "pent-" for 5 and Latin numerical prefix "sept-" for 7, both used strangely as suffixes. Comparing "negrisept" as it appears in Middle Path (https://dkeenan.com/Music/MiddlePath.pdf) with 7-limit negri on the wiki, these appear to be the same thing: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Slendro_clan#7-limit, so that's what happened to "negrisept".

:* In 2004, Gene Ward Smith suggested revisions to Paul's names as he was about to publish Middle Path for the first time. He suggests shortening them to "negrip" and "negris": https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_10620#10640 It looks like this practice of suffixing "-pent" and "-sept" was used for other temperaments too, as we also find "dimipent" and "dimisept" here, as well as "sensipent" and "sensisept".

:* A couple weeks later, Dave Keenan proposed renaming "negripent" to simply "negri": https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_10945.html#10945 And perhaps from that point on most people went with that, with a brief period where some acknowledged Paul's terminology (as Herman Miller did in the link on my second bullet here). In Middle Path that negripent refers to 16875:16384, or {{vector|-14 3 4}}, which is thee same thing as the wiki refers to as "negri" now. So I suppose since later revisions to Middle Path never renamed this from "negripent", but the wiki moved forward with "negri".

: So what to do from here? I suppose "negripent" should redirect here instead: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Slendro_clan#Negri, and a similar redirect should be made for "negrisept", but to the 7-limit subsection.

: --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 17:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 I found the redirect [[Negripent]] pointing to the section [[Marvel temperaments #Negri]] where nothing can be found about "Negripent" (also nowhere else in this article). --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 11:35, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
+: I just stumbled across this issue myself! I did a little research and I think I figured out what's going on here.
+:Without ever really thinking about it before, I suppose I'd always assumed that "negripent" meant something along the lines of "black-like", with the "negr-" prefix and "-ent" suffix; I never thought of an explanation for the "p", but I must have vaguely assumed that it was some European language's idiosyncrasy. Anyway, that's not it at all.
+:* It turns out that the "negri" part is for someone named John Negri: https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_3774.html#3813 I see that this information is found on the wiki here: [[Temperament_names#Negri]]. Sintel questions whether John Negri is real here: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Talk:Temperament_names. I do find evidence that he is real, though (and will alert Sintel to this). The paper Paul references here (https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_31054.html#31065) is almost certainly "The Nineteen-Tone System as Ten Plus Nine", which is on pages 11-13 of Volume 5, Number 3 (Winter 1986-1987) of Interval magazine (https://interval.xentonic.org/tables-of-contents.html). This is corroborated by Graham Breed's site here: http://x31eq.com/catalog.htm And here's a couple links with a record of John Negri's performance at AFMM with the Blue Guitar Ensemble: https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_15414.html#15414, and https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_14441.html#14441
+:* As for the "pent" part, that was meant to distinguish the 5-limit version of this temperament from its 7-limit extension, which was called "negrisept": https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_11629.html#11662. So it's actually the Greek numerical prefix "pent-" for 5 and Latin numerical prefix "sept-" for 7, both used strangely as suffixes. Comparing "negrisept" as it appears in Middle Path (https://dkeenan.com/Music/MiddlePath.pdf) with 7-limit negri on the wiki, these appear to be the same thing: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Slendro_clan#7-limit, so that's what happened to "negrisept".
+:* In 2004, Gene Ward Smith suggested revisions to Paul's names as he was about to publish Middle Path for the first time. He suggests shortening them to "negrip" and "negris": https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_10620#10640 It looks like this practice of suffixing "-pent" and "-sept" was used for other temperaments too, as we also find "dimipent" and "dimisept" here, as well as "sensipent" and "sensisept".
+:* A couple weeks later, Dave Keenan proposed renaming "negripent" to simply "negri": https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_10945.html#10945 And perhaps from that point on most people went with that, with a brief period where some acknowledged Paul's terminology (as Herman Miller did in the link on my second bullet here). In Middle Path that negripent refers to 16875:16384, or {{vector|-14 3 4}}, which is thee same thing as the wiki refers to as "negri" now. So I suppose since later revisions to Middle Path never renamed this from "negripent", but the wiki moved forward with "negri".
+: So what to do from here? I suppose "negripent" should redirect here instead: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Slendro_clan#Negri, and a similar redirect should be made for "negrisept", but to the 7-limit subsection.
+: --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 17:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)