User talk:SAKryukov/Wiki: Difference between revisions

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: Aha, looked at Timeless again. Yes, it has some elegance and compliance with the well-known modern designs (vertical menu for user-related items, etc.), but it is too sparse to my taste. By the way, found a couple of low-priority bugs in Vector, would be ready to report them, but probably this is not very useful, as that should rather be addressed to the author of this skin. More generally, even not mentioning bugs, the skins are not 100% pure skins, but they touch semantics a little bit: some elements appear or disappear... — [[User:SAKryukov|SA]] 20:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

=== Remaining bugs? ===

Hello SAKryukov, <br>

Meanwhile the wiki configuration problems are found an fixed, so most bugs should have disappeared now. The only remaining bug I know about is <code><nowiki>{{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}}</nowiki></code> returning <code>{{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}}</code> which contradicts the user list filtered after the same criterion: [[Special:ActiveUsers]]. Is there anything else? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 14:32, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

: The NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS bug is in MediaWiki itself (see [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T140079 T140079]). --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 14:52, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

: Thank you for the note! It's funny that I recently tried to output most of the statistics with those magic words and noticed 2 NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS. But also, I can see that the style problem with a margin or padding on the right from an external link is still there. — [[User:SAKryukov|SA]], ''Tuesday 2020 December 1, 15:27 UTC''

:: Show me please an example of such a case. To my knowledge, external links (except those using interwiki syntax) have a background icon. For example [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki Wiki – Wikipedia]•[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki Wiki – Wikipedia] and [[Wikipedia: Wiki]]•[[Wikipedia: Wiki]]. In Vector the spacing seems alright to me. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 20:17, 1 December 2020 (UTC), Same in MinervaNeue and in MonoBook. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 20:20, 1 December 2020 (UTC), same in Timeless and Legacy Vector. ''When'' did you see the "style problem"? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 20:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

::: Sure, I already reported it before and you've admitted it was a problem. Okay. let's compare next two lines:

:::: [[User:SAKryukov|link]] words after inner link

:::: [http://www.SAKryukov.org link] words after external link

:::: See the difference? Due to this problem, you cannot, for example, put a comma after an external link text (such as "link" in this example), and so on...

:::: — Thank you! — [[User:SAKryukov|SA]], ''Tuesday 2020 December 1, 20:33 UTC''

::::: As already stated, wikis are for collaborating on ideas not platforms for publishing papers or books. The external links are marked with a prominent formatting so that you can see that you are leaving the wiki if you follow them. They are also not checked for resolvability. Try to take the icon after the link text as just another letter, there is nothing that will be done to "fix" this, it really is a feature. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:37, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

:::::: If it smells like a bug, swims like a bug... I think even you will understand it's just a mere bug, and not a feature. If you're talking of the feature and not a bug, the visual clue for external links, as opposed to internal ones, is, for example, in Wikipedia. It's something like

:::::: <code>a.external::after { content: url('external-link.webp'); }</code> Not too hard, right? — [[User:SAKryukov|SA]], ''Sunday 2020 December 6, 20:54 UTC''

::::::: Sorry I'm really not getting what you're after. I just compared the CSS here with that in Wikipedia. No substantial difference. Both use for external links a padding of 13px (for the background-image). But maybe I'm just too stupid? In that case you better report this ''bug'' to [[User:Tyler Henthorn|Tyler Henthorn]] or [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]]. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:40, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

:::::::: Interestingly, I can see some confusion here. Naturally, before posting it I look at Wikipedia and saw: no padding (naturally, it's not informative and looks like a mere bug), but an "external link" bitmap instead, which is perfectly clear. Don't we look at different Wikipedia? :-) I did quite recently, about the time of my previous post. Or do you use non-standard browser or non-browser? Okay, look, for example here, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtonal_music#External_links look at the external links]. No margins/padding, nothing, just a glyph. I also read the discussion on this matter: people tried to introduce a code point "external links" for this purpose, which would provide the best solution, but the committee did no accept it. — [[User:SAKryukov|SA]], ''Sunday 2020 December 6, 22:08 UTC''

:::::::: Also, I'm trying to segregate our Wiki discussion from the main talk by moving these topics to my sub-page [[User talk:SAKryukov/Wiki|User talk:SAKryukov/Wiki]], already moved old content except this section. Would you be comfortable to track the discussion there, if I move this section as well? — [[User:SAKryukov|SA]], ''Sunday 2020 December 6, 22:12 UTC''

::::::::: Well, move it, no problem. You are using Chrome? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 22:38, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

:::::::::: I'll do this after posting the present reply. I use many browsers and test everything using them. I mostly use Vivaldi, which I highly recommend. It is equivalent to Chrome/Chromium (Blink+V8), just controls/options are a lot better. Unfortunately, for advanced development Blink+V8 is the only option. Even more unfortunately, all Mozilla stuff is left behind precisely because of audio stuff: it has a critical defect in rendering sounds with Web Audio. Opera and newest Microsoft Edge (not even beginning of 2020, but later Blink+V8 (Chromium) version) work fine, but recently I faced and unforgivable defect: it Edge does not support AV1 codec, which is a present-day top video standard of near-impossible fantastic quality, compression level, and responsiveness. — [[User:SAKryukov|SA]], ''Sunday 2020 December 6, 23:32 UTC''

== An incidental wiki syntax note ==

Hello SA, <br>

for people used to Github or GitLab wikis this may come unexpected: the wiki syntax for internal links is <code><nowiki>[[some title]]</nowiki></code> or <code><nowiki>[[Some title]]</nowiki></code>. Both addressing the same target page "Some title": the first character of any page title is automatically forced to uppercase. Subsequent inner underscores (or spaces) in internal links are transformed into one space, outer underscores (or spaces) are ignored. So [[User_talk:SAKryukov]] is the same as [[User talk:SAKryukov]] same as [[user talk:SAKryukov]] same as [[User____talk:SAKryukov]] same as [[__user____talk:SAKryukov__]]. The pipe char within titles (separating the target page on the left, and the text on the right of it) is only needed if the text differs in a significant way from the target page title, for example [[User talk:SAKryukov|other title]] (being <code><nowiki>[[User talk:SAKryukov|other title]]</nowiki></code> in wikitext). Sorry that I abused your talk page title, but it's really the best choice: it has a space in it and it's bolded because we are already here (the self-link feature), so the equivalence is obvious without any need to navigate. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:32, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

: Thank you. This is useful, only I did not understand the purpose of your last edit and what would be your advice. From my point of view, it looks like a pleasure of getting rid of underscores. After several attempts to understand what you suggest to change, I simply looked at your signature (and some of my previous links, for that matter and found that it uses a blank space instead of underscore. It makes perfect sense, according to the rules of processing you just explained and the practical merits. So I simply replaced underscores with blank spaces, which is really better. I did not understand why would you add a new section under the same name, and a link to a non-existing page, why you mentioned GitHub and GitLab, and so on. Please, no need to answer these questions unless you think I do something wrong — in essence, everything looks clear anyway.

@@ Line 82: / Line 82: @@
 : Aha, looked at Timeless again. Yes, it has some elegance and compliance with the well-known modern designs (vertical menu for user-related items, etc.), but it is too sparse to my taste. By the way, found a couple of low-priority bugs in Vector, would be ready to report them, but probably this is not very useful, as that should rather be addressed to the author of this skin. More generally, even not mentioning bugs, the skins are not 100% pure skins, but they touch semantics a little bit: some elements appear or disappear... &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:SAKryukov|SA]] 20:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
+=== Remaining bugs? ===
+Hello SAKryukov, <br>
+Meanwhile the wiki configuration problems are found an fixed, so most bugs should have disappeared now. The only remaining bug I know about is <code><nowiki>{{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}}</nowiki></code> returning <code>{{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}}</code> which contradicts the user list filtered after the same criterion: [[Special:ActiveUsers]]. Is there anything else? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 14:32, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
+: The NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS bug is in MediaWiki itself (see [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T140079 T140079]). --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 14:52, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
+: Thank you for the note! It's funny that I recently tried to output most of the statistics with those magic words and noticed 2 NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS. But also, I can see that the style problem with a margin or padding on the right from an external link is still there. &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:SAKryukov|SA]],&nbsp;''Tuesday&nbsp;2020&nbsp;December&nbsp;1,&nbsp;15:27&nbsp;UTC''
+:: Show me please an example of such a case. To my knowledge, external links (except those using interwiki syntax) have a background icon. For example [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki Wiki – Wikipedia]&bull;[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki Wiki – Wikipedia] and  [[Wikipedia: Wiki]]&bull;[[Wikipedia: Wiki]]. In Vector the spacing seems alright to me. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 20:17, 1 December 2020 (UTC), Same in MinervaNeue and in MonoBook. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 20:20, 1 December 2020 (UTC), same in Timeless and Legacy Vector. ''When'' did you see the "style problem"? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 20:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
+::: Sure, I already reported it before and you've admitted it was a problem. Okay. let's compare next two lines:
+:::: [[User:SAKryukov|link]] words after inner link
+:::: [http://www.SAKryukov.org link] words after external link
+:::: See the difference? Due to this problem, you  cannot, for example, put a comma after an external link text (such as "link" in this example), and so on...
+:::: — Thank you! &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:SAKryukov|SA]],&nbsp;''Tuesday&nbsp;2020&nbsp;December&nbsp;1,&nbsp;20:33&nbsp;UTC''
+::::: As already stated, wikis are for collaborating on ideas not platforms for publishing papers or books. The external links are marked with a prominent formatting so that you can see that you are leaving the wiki if you follow them. They are also not checked for resolvability. Try to take the icon after the link text as just another letter, there is nothing that will be done to "fix" this, it really is a feature. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:37, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
+:::::: If it smells like a bug, swims like a bug... I think even you will understand it's just a mere bug, and not a feature. If you're talking of the feature and not a bug, the visual clue for external links, as opposed to internal ones, is, for example, in Wikipedia. It's something like
+:::::: <code>a.external::after { content: url('external-link.webp'); }</code> Not too hard, right? &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:SAKryukov|SA]],&nbsp;''Sunday&nbsp;2020&nbsp;December&nbsp;6,&nbsp;20:54&nbsp;UTC''
+::::::: Sorry I'm really not getting what you're after. I just compared the CSS here with that in Wikipedia. No substantial difference. Both use for external links a padding of 13px (for the background-image). But maybe I'm just too stupid? In that case you better report this ''bug'' to [[User:Tyler Henthorn|Tyler Henthorn]] or [[User:Mike Battaglia|Mike Battaglia]]. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:40, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
+:::::::: Interestingly, I can see some confusion here. Naturally, before posting it I look at Wikipedia and saw: no padding (naturally, it's not informative and looks like a mere bug), but an "external link" bitmap instead, which is perfectly clear. Don't we look at different Wikipedia? :-) I did quite recently, about the time of my previous post. Or do you use non-standard browser or non-browser? Okay, look, for example here, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtonal_music#External_links look at the external links]. No margins/padding, nothing, just a glyph. I also read the discussion on this matter: people tried to introduce a code point "external links" for this purpose, which would provide the best solution, but the committee did no accept it. &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:SAKryukov|SA]],&nbsp;''Sunday&nbsp;2020&nbsp;December&nbsp;6,&nbsp;22:08&nbsp;UTC''
+:::::::: Also, I'm trying to segregate our Wiki discussion from the main talk by moving these topics to my sub-page [[User talk:SAKryukov/Wiki|User talk:SAKryukov/Wiki]], already moved old content except this section. Would you be comfortable to track the discussion there, if I move this section as well? &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:SAKryukov|SA]],&nbsp;''Sunday&nbsp;2020&nbsp;December&nbsp;6,&nbsp;22:12&nbsp;UTC''
+::::::::: Well, move it, no problem. You are using Chrome? --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 22:38, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
+:::::::::: I'll do this after posting the present reply. I use many browsers and test everything using them. I mostly use Vivaldi, which I highly recommend. It is equivalent to Chrome/Chromium (Blink+V8), just controls/options are a lot better. Unfortunately, for advanced development Blink+V8 is the only option. Even more unfortunately, all Mozilla stuff is left behind precisely because of audio stuff: it has a critical defect in rendering sounds with Web Audio. Opera and newest Microsoft Edge (not even beginning of 2020, but later Blink+V8 (Chromium) version) work fine, but recently I faced and unforgivable defect: it Edge does not support AV1 codec, which is a present-day top video standard of near-impossible fantastic quality, compression level, and responsiveness. &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:SAKryukov|SA]],&nbsp;''Sunday&nbsp;2020&nbsp;December&nbsp;6,&nbsp;23:32&nbsp;UTC''
+== An incidental wiki syntax note ==
+Hello SA, <br>
+for people used to Github or GitLab wikis this may come unexpected: the wiki syntax for internal links is <code><nowiki>[[some title]]</nowiki></code> or <code><nowiki>[[Some title]]</nowiki></code>. Both addressing the same target page "Some title": the first character of any page title is automatically forced to uppercase. Subsequent inner underscores (or spaces) in internal links are transformed into one space, outer underscores (or spaces) are ignored. So [[User_talk:SAKryukov]] is the same as [[User talk:SAKryukov]] same as [[user    talk:SAKryukov]] same as [[User____talk:SAKryukov]] same as [[__user____talk:SAKryukov__]]. The pipe char within titles (separating the target page on the left, and the text on the right of it) is only needed if the text differs in a significant way from the target page title, for example [[User talk:SAKryukov|other title]] (being <code><nowiki>[[User talk:SAKryukov|other title]]</nowiki></code> in wikitext). Sorry that I abused your talk page title, but it's really the best choice: it has a space in it and it's bolded because we are already here (the self-link feature), so the equivalence is obvious without any need to navigate. --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 21:32, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
+: Thank you. This is useful, only I did not understand the purpose of your last edit and what would be your advice. From my point of view, it looks like a pleasure of getting rid of underscores. After several attempts to understand what you suggest to change, I simply looked at your signature (and some of my previous links, for that matter and found that it uses a blank space instead of underscore. It makes perfect sense, according to the rules of processing you just explained and the practical merits. So I simply replaced underscores with blank spaces, which is really better. I did not understand why would you add a new section under the same name, and a link to a non-existing page, why you mentioned GitHub and GitLab, and so on. Please, no need to answer these questions unless you think I do something wrong — in essence, everything looks clear anyway.