User talk:Rperlner: Difference between revisions

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:::::::::::::: Okay then. It seems to me that I personally would prefer the Subject and Answer of a fugue to be more lengthy passages in more stable keys, even though the Subject is in the original Tonic key while the Answer is in the key located a perfect fifth above the original- at least when we're not working in Locrian mode, as for a Locrian fugue, the Answer seems to need to be in the key located a perfect fourth above the original due to having a flat five. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 01:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

::::::::::::::: I see why you like Bach's little fugue in G then. Very long and very tonally stable subject. It leans pretty heavily on the dominant and the raised leading tone to get this effect, so it's not obvious how to do something like that in Locrian. Speaking of Locrian, I think it is possible to have the answer be a transposition up a perfect 5th of the subject, as is common for fugues based on other modes, but up a 4th is certainly easier and it's what I did for my Locrian fugue. (I had the for voices entering on B, E, D and B respectively.) --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 15:50, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::: I do know that while Locrian mode doesn't have a perfect fifth above the Tonic, and thus cannot resort to establishing Tonality in those more typical fashions, it does have access to Minor's lowered seventh scale degree, the Subtonic, which not only acts as the melodic anchor in place of a proper Dominant but also establishes tonality through a sort of "back door"- all due to the parallel relationship between a Dominant and a Subtonic. I must also point out that the Subtonic is the Serviant of the Serviant in much the same way that a Supertonic is the Dominant of the Dominant, meaning the Subtonic is very easy to hit from a chord progression standpoint. This is why the Tyrant chord must include some iteration of its third, because the third of the Tyrant chord is the lowered seventh scale degree, and can thus establish tonality through the aforementioned mechanism. A cantus firmus in Locrian must rely heavily on the lowered seventh scale for much the same reason, and at the same time, since a flat fifth without the backing of the lowered seventh has a way of negating tonality, the flat fifth must be avoided in the cantus firmus, but can be unlocked for counterpointed melodies when the cantus firmus has the Subtonic. The same thing is true with the flat sixth, but for different reasons, with the flat sixth being unlocked in counterpointed melodies where the cantus firmus has either the Mediant or the Serviant. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 20:28, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::::: I just had a thought... Since the wolf fifth is a different interval from the perfect fifth with different properties, perhaps a succession of chords in root position such as the sequence G-Major (1/1-5/4-3/2), A-Wolf-Minor (1/1-32/27-40/27), B-Diminished (1/1-6/5-32/27), C-Major (1/1-5/4-3/2) in the key of C-Major could potentially be allowed in non-meantone settings, seeing as it seems to be that only two successive chords with parallel perfect fifths or octaves lead to the loss of independence among the different voices. Do you think this is a viable technique for things like fugues? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 23:12, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

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:::::::::::::: Looks like the so-called "purists" in the Music Theory department really were wrong about the IVM-VM-IM after all. Still, the usage of the IIm-VM-IM cadence does have serious merits- especially in an Ionian circle progression containing the final cadence. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 01:15, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

::::::::::::::: Agreed. From my spot checking, it definitely seemed to me like Bach usually preferred ii V I final cadences to IV V I, as the former are much more common in his music.--[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 15:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::::::::::: Now, as I'm looking over the counterpoint rules [[Wikipedia:Counterpoint|as listed on Wikipedia]], the only rule I can think of that I can flout for sure is rule six- building from the bass upwards- and that courtesy of the existence of Treble-Down Tonality, which requires the reverse direction construction for sections that use it. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 02:37, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

::::::::::::::: BTW, if you're looking for info on counterpoint, I recommend Jacob Gran's youtube videos. Elam Rotem also has some good videos about the Renaissance tradition specifically, and a number go into detail regarding the Renaissance perspective on counterpoint (e.g. his video on cadences) as well as tuning. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 15:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::: I'm checking a bit of that now, and so far, I'm finding a good chunk of this stuff interesting. I'll see how much of this I can apply to what I'm doing. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 21:16, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

:: I know this may sound hard to believe, but in all my experimenting with different intervals, I've found that the wrong kind of interval involving small-number-ratios between the wrong two notes actually works against the formation of a sense of tonality. Conversely, a more tense-sounding interval in the right location- yes, even if the interval in question happens to be [[40/27]]- can actually strengthen your sense of tonality. Yes, intervals with small-number-ratios are vital to establishing tonality, but because of their power, they have to be well-placed within the tonal system, or otherwise the sense of tonality shifts when you don't want it to. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

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:His email is listed on his website. https://www.encyclospace.org/ Why don't you contact him? --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 15:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

:: Okay, I contacted him, and he replied saying only that his microtonal counterpoint theories are to be found in his book "Computational Counterpoint Worlds". Perhaps we should both read it. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 18:35, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

== Reduce comma tables on EDO pages ==

Please have a look at [[Xenharmonic Wiki: Things to do #Comma tables in EDO_pages]]. Thanks --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 09:09, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

== Welcome to Dystopia ==

Hey Ray, I just finished "[[:File:Welcome to Dystopia.mp3|Welcome to Dystopia]]". This song involves multiple key changes and some degree of polyphony, especially in the later portions. I even added distorted vocals, which I couldn't add in the original version of this song as I didn't have either Audacity or a microphone at the time. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 23:22, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

:Hi Aura. Nice song. I definitely think that the effects modulations and more varied textures add to the richness of the overall sound. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 16:32, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

== Discord Conversations ==

Hey, I've been wondering if you'd like to join some of the conversations on the Xenharmonic Alliance Discord Server. I personally think we could share more ideas if you were there. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 13:35, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

: Hi Aura. I created a discord account. Still haven't looked closely enough to figure out what to do with it yet. BTW, I completed my set of modal fugues. You can find them here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkW9S8bpltfyhXXDcnsnF2d3Y08cm4vsp --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 21:18, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

::Well, we can talk about it some time if you'd like. I've been using Discord for over two years now, so I can show you at least a few things about some of the basic functionalities and stuff like that. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 18:23, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

@@ Line 478: / Line 478: @@
 :::::::::::::: Okay then.  It seems to me that I personally would prefer the Subject and Answer of a fugue to be more lengthy passages in more stable keys, even though the Subject is in the original Tonic key while the Answer is in the key located a perfect fifth above the original- at least when we're not working in Locrian mode, as for a Locrian fugue, the Answer seems to need to be in the key located a perfect fourth above the original due to having a flat five. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 01:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
+::::::::::::::: I see why you like Bach's little fugue in G then. Very long and very tonally stable subject. It leans pretty heavily on the dominant and the raised leading tone to get this effect, so it's not obvious how to do something like that in Locrian. Speaking of Locrian, I think it is possible to have the answer be a transposition up a perfect 5th of the subject, as is common for fugues based on other modes, but up a 4th is certainly easier and it's what I did for my Locrian fugue. (I had the for voices entering on B, E, D and B respectively.) --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 15:50, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
+:::::::::::::::: I do know that while Locrian mode doesn't have a perfect fifth above the Tonic, and thus cannot resort to establishing Tonality in those more typical fashions, it does have access to Minor's lowered seventh scale degree, the Subtonic, which not only acts as the melodic anchor in place of a proper Dominant but also establishes tonality through a sort of "back door"- all due to the parallel relationship between a Dominant and a Subtonic.  I must also point out that the Subtonic is the Serviant of the Serviant in much the same way that a Supertonic is the Dominant of the Dominant, meaning the Subtonic is very easy to hit from a chord progression standpoint.  This is why the Tyrant chord must include some iteration of its third, because the third of the Tyrant chord is the lowered seventh scale degree, and can thus establish tonality through the aforementioned mechanism.  A cantus firmus in Locrian must rely heavily on the lowered seventh scale for much the same reason, and at the same time, since a flat fifth without the backing of the lowered seventh has a way of negating tonality, the flat fifth must be avoided in the cantus firmus, but can be unlocked for counterpointed melodies when the cantus firmus has the Subtonic.  The same thing is true with the flat sixth, but for different reasons, with the flat sixth being unlocked in counterpointed melodies where the cantus firmus has either the Mediant or the Serviant. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 20:28, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 :::::::: I just had a thought...  Since the wolf fifth is a different interval from the perfect fifth with different properties, perhaps a succession of chords in root position such as the sequence G-Major (1/1-5/4-3/2), A-Wolf-Minor (1/1-32/27-40/27), B-Diminished (1/1-6/5-32/27), C-Major (1/1-5/4-3/2) in the key of C-Major could potentially be allowed in non-meantone settings, seeing as it seems to be that only two successive chords with parallel perfect fifths or octaves lead to the loss of independence among the different voices.  Do you think this is a viable technique for things like fugues? --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 23:12, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
@@ Line 494: / Line 498: @@
 :::::::::::::: Looks like the so-called "purists" in the Music Theory department really were wrong about the IVM-VM-IM after all.  Still, the usage of the IIm-VM-IM cadence does have serious merits- especially in an Ionian circle progression containing the final cadence. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 01:15, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
+::::::::::::::: Agreed. From my spot checking, it definitely seemed to me like Bach usually preferred ii V I final cadences to IV V I, as the former are much more common in his music.--[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 15:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 :::::::::::::: Now, as I'm looking over the counterpoint rules [[Wikipedia:Counterpoint|as listed on Wikipedia]], the only rule I can think of that I can flout for sure is rule six- building from the bass upwards- and that courtesy of the existence of Treble-Down Tonality, which requires the reverse direction construction for sections that use it. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 02:37, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
+::::::::::::::: BTW, if you're looking for info on counterpoint, I recommend Jacob Gran's youtube videos. Elam Rotem also has some good videos about the Renaissance tradition specifically, and a number go into detail regarding the Renaissance perspective on counterpoint (e.g. his video on cadences) as well as tuning. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 15:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
+:::::::::::::::: I'm checking a bit of that now, and so far, I'm finding a good chunk of this stuff interesting.  I'll see how much of this I can apply to what I'm doing. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 21:16, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 :: I know this may sound hard to believe, but in all my experimenting with different intervals, I've found that the wrong kind of interval involving small-number-ratios between the wrong two notes actually works against the formation of a sense of tonality.  Conversely, a more tense-sounding interval in the right location- yes, even if the interval in question happens to be [[40/27]]- can actually strengthen your sense of tonality.  Yes, intervals with small-number-ratios are vital to establishing tonality, but because of their power, they have to be well-placed within the tonal system, or otherwise the sense of tonality shifts when you don't want it to. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 04:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
@@ Line 506: / Line 516: @@
 :His email is listed on his website. https://www.encyclospace.org/ Why don't you contact him? --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 15:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
+:: Okay, I contacted him, and he replied saying only that his microtonal counterpoint theories are to be found in his book "Computational Counterpoint Worlds".  Perhaps we should both read it. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 18:35, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 == Reduce comma tables on EDO pages ==
 Please have a look at [[Xenharmonic Wiki: Things to do #Comma tables in EDO_pages]]. Thanks --[[User:Xenwolf|Xenwolf]] ([[User talk:Xenwolf|talk]]) 09:09, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
+== Welcome to Dystopia  ==
+Hey Ray, I just finished "[[:File:Welcome to Dystopia.mp3|Welcome to Dystopia]]".  This song involves multiple key changes and some degree of polyphony, especially in the later portions.  I even added distorted vocals, which I couldn't add in the original version of this song as I didn't have either Audacity or a microphone at the time. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 23:22, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
+:Hi Aura. Nice song. I definitely think that the effects modulations and more varied textures add to the richness of the overall sound. --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 16:32, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
+== Discord Conversations ==
+Hey, I've been wondering if you'd like to join some of the conversations on the Xenharmonic Alliance Discord Server.  I personally think we could share more ideas if you were there. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 13:35, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
+: Hi Aura. I created a discord account. Still haven't looked closely enough to figure out what to do with it yet. BTW, I completed my set of modal fugues. You can find them here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkW9S8bpltfyhXXDcnsnF2d3Y08cm4vsp --[[User:Rperlner|Rperlner]] ([[User talk:Rperlner|talk]]) 21:18, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
+::Well, we can talk about it some time if you'd like.  I've been using Discord for over two years now, so I can show you at least a few things about some of the basic functionalities and stuff like that. --[[User:Aura|Aura]] ([[User talk:Aura|talk]]) 18:23, 8 July 2021 (UTC)