Talk:Sagittal notation: Difference between revisions
→Hybrid of Revo Sagittal with HEJI, Sagittal Natural?: Maybe last answer to this for now? |
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(***)Technically the pedal harp starts with the home positions of the pedals not stopping the strings at all, producing flats of all 7 lettered notes, and then has the pedal mechanism engage first one set of fixed-point string stops to get to the naturals, and then another to get to the sharps, but conceptually it is easier to think of it as giving on-the-fly pitch bend by a fixed amount 1\12 in either direction from each natural note of 12EDO. Unfortunately, all of the pedal harps I have seen or heard do not have any way to vary the pitch bend, and attempting to bend a pitch to in between positions instead causes a fearsome rattling when an affected string is plucked. | (***)Technically the pedal harp starts with the home positions of the pedals not stopping the strings at all, producing flats of all 7 lettered notes, and then has the pedal mechanism engage first one set of fixed-point string stops to get to the naturals, and then another to get to the sharps, but conceptually it is easier to think of it as giving on-the-fly pitch bend by a fixed amount 1\12 in either direction from each natural note of 12EDO. Unfortunately, all of the pedal harps I have seen or heard do not have any way to vary the pitch bend, and attempting to bend a pitch to in between positions instead causes a fearsome rattling when an affected string is plucked. | ||
This use case would require just one modification to the Sagittal Spartan symbol set: the addition of a Sagittal natural, which would only cancel preceding Sagittal pitch alterations, while the existing HEJI natural would be restricted to cancel only HEJI accidentals(*). For example, a Sagittal symbol applied to a C♮ means to play the C♮ note (key on a keyboard, fret on a fretted string instrument, valve on a brass instrument, etc.) with a pitch modification specified by the Sagittal symbol (even if in the vicinity of a full sharp or flat in size, hence needing a Sagittal Revo symbol); likewise, a Sagittal symbol applied to a C♭ (whether in the key signature or as an accidental) means to play the C♭ note modified by the Sagittal symbol; but canceling the flat on the C♭ is not the same as canceling the Sagittal modification, whereas one means return to using the C♮ (which might possibly still have a Sagittal modification on it, whether the same or different), a Sagittal natural would be needed to return the affected note to its normal pitch, whether that is C♭ or C♮. | This use case would require just one modification to the Sagittal Spartan symbol set: the addition of a Sagittal natural, which would only cancel preceding Sagittal pitch alterations, while the existing HEJI natural would be restricted to cancel only HEJI accidentals(*). For example, a Sagittal symbol applied to a C♮ means to play the C♮ note (key on a keyboard, fret on a fretted string instrument, valve on a brass instrument, etc.) with a pitch modification specified by the Sagittal symbol (even if in the vicinity of a full sharp or flat in size(**), hence needing a Sagittal Revo symbol); likewise, a Sagittal symbol applied to a C♭ (whether in the key signature or as an accidental) means to play the C♭ note modified by the Sagittal symbol; but canceling the flat on the C♭ is not the same as canceling the Sagittal modification, whereas one means return to using the C♮ (which might possibly still have a Sagittal modification on it, whether the same or different), a Sagittal natural would be needed to return the affected note to its normal pitch, whether that is C♭ or C♮. | ||
(*)Usually only flats and sharps and their doubles, but on an instrument having sufficient having more than 19 notes per octave, such as some early Baroque harpsichords having up to 36 notes per octave such as Nicola Vicentino's Arcicembalo or its 31 notes per octave (but less terrible ergonomics) derivative the Clavemusicum Omnitonum, more HEJI symbols would be useful, or even required if such an instrument was tuned to a system having multiple rings of fifths. | (*)Usually only flats and sharps and their doubles, but on an instrument having sufficient having more than 19 notes per octave, such as some early Baroque harpsichords having up to 36 notes per octave such as Nicola Vicentino's Arcicembalo or its 31 notes per octave (but less terrible ergonomics) derivative the Clavemusicum Omnitonum, more HEJI symbols would be useful, or even required if such an instrument was tuned to a system having multiple rings of fifths. | ||
Added: [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 05:21, 21 July 2026 (UTC) | (**)If you needed to do the equivalent of a harp glissando, you would need to set one note to be exactly enharmonic with the next higher or lower note. | ||
Added: [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 05:21, 21 July 2026 (UTC)<br> | |||
Last modified: [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 05:36, 21 July 2026 (UTC) | |||
: Setting aside that wiki talk pages are usually reserved for discussion about the wiki (description of existing work), not the topic itself (I suppose the best place would be the Sagittal forum), I believe that simply using a natural accidental followed by a restatement of whichever accidental needs to be carried over should suffice. That logic could be applied to any combination of two accidental symbol sets, although I know the rules for Kite's ups and downs are slightly different, e.g. an arrow alone implies a natural accidental, cancelling any prior sharp or flat. Furthermore, I think the Sagittal notation system is largely flexible enough to accommodate rank-3 tunings without any other symbols, especially the revo set. --[[User:Fredg999|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999|talk]]) 14:31, 21 July 2026 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks, Fredg999, that's well answered. Yes, Lucius, please post suggestions like this to https://forum.sagittal.org in future, when they are not about this wiki article. There are in fact two purely-Sagittal naturals that you could use for this purpose, although they were not intended for it. They are the bare shafts up and down, {{Sagittal||}} and {{Sagittal|!}}. See https://w3c-cg.github.io/smufl/latest/tables/herculean-sagittal-extension-very-high-precision-accidental-diacritics.html. [[User:Dave Keenan|Dave Keenan]] ([[User talk:Dave Keenan|talk]]) 01:36, 28 July 2026 (UTC) | |||
::: Thanks — I guess I will have to bite the bullet and create yet another account on yet another site. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio|talk]]) 03:25, 28 July 2026 (UTC) | |||