User:BudjarnLambeth/Some tunings for Japanese scales: Difference between revisions

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Created page with "; In ''my personal subjective opinion'': The '''best-sounding''' tunings for most Japanese scales are: * Meantone temperament in 55edo * 2/11-comma meantone * Meantone temperament in 43edo * 1/5-comma meantone Other tunings that aren't quite as good as those, but still '''very good''', for most Japanese scales are: * Any meantone tuning with a fifth between 697{{c}} (5/22-comma) and 701{{c}} (..."
 
BudjarnLambeth (talk | contribs)
autopatrolled, emailconfirmed
21,262 edits
 
(20 intermediate revisions by the same user not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
; In ''my personal subjective opinion'':
; In ''my personal subjective opinion:''


The '''best-sounding''' tunings for most Japanese scales are:
The '''best-sounding''' tunings for most Japanese scales are:
* [[Meantone]] temperament in [[55edo]]
* [[Meantone]] temperament in [[55edo]]
* [[Historical temperaments|2/11-comma meantone]]
* [[Historical temperaments|2/11-comma meantone]]
* [[Meantone]] temperament in [[43edo]]
* Meantone temperament in [[98edo]]
* Meantone temperament in [[43edo]]
* [[Historical temperaments|1/5-comma meantone]]
* [[Historical temperaments|1/5-comma meantone]]


Line 16: Line 17:
Tunings that sound '''bad''' to me include:
Tunings that sound '''bad''' to me include:
* The most obvious 5-limit [[just intonation]] interpetations of the scales: these have too many [[wolf interval|wolf]] intervals-between-intervals
* The most obvious 5-limit [[just intonation]] interpetations of the scales: these have too many [[wolf interval|wolf]] intervals-between-intervals
* [[Pythagorean]] and similar tunings (e.g. [[schismic]], [[garibaldi]], [[cassandra]], [[andromeda]], [[65edo]], [[53edo]], [[41edo]] - these have the same wolf problems as the just interpretations
* [[Pythagorean]] and similar tunings (e.g. [[schismic]], [[garibaldi]], [[cassandra]], [[andromeda]], [[65edo]], [[53edo]], [[41edo]]) - these have the same wolf problems as the just interpretations
* Any meantone tuning with fifths flatter than 2/9-comma (e.g. [[31edo]], quarter-comma, [[50edo]], 1/3-comma) - these include some tritones which are a bit sharper than [[10/7]], and to my ears those just sound unbearably bitter
* Any meantone tuning with fifths flatter than 2/9-comma (e.g. [[31edo]], quarter-comma, [[50edo]], 1/3-comma) - these include some tritones which are a bit sharper than [[10/7]], and to my ears those just sound unbearably bitter
* Any [[leapday]] tuning close to [[46edo]] - the 10/7 tritone gets too sharp which makes the whole scale too bitter, like in the flatter meantone tunings
* Any [[leapday]] tuning close to [[46edo]] - the 10/7 tritone gets too sharp which makes the whole scale too bitter, like in the flatter meantone tunings


Tunings that I '''have yet to try properly''' and plan to try in future:
* Over-3, -5, -7, -11, -13, -17, -19 & -23 primodality
** Semiprime modes of the above
* Compton in [[84edo]]
* [[User:BudjarnLambeth/Substitute harmonic|Narrowed compton]]


; For all these tunings, any note will work as the tonic but my favourite is D tuned to 140-150 Hz.
; For all these tunings, any note will work as the tonic but my favourite is somewhere between 100 and 120 Hz (G#, Ab, A, A# or Bb).
 
 
; For all these tunings, any timbre will work but I especially like the [[Scale Workshop]] "piano" aperiodic timbre with a percussive (medium) envelope and moderate reverb, as to me it sounds like a {{w|koto}}.




'''The remainder of this page''' will list various Japanese scales in various tunings that I consider "good" for these scales.  
'''The remainder of this page''' will list various Japanese scales in various tunings that I consider "good" for these scales.  


I list all of the scales (including rotations) for 12, 29, 43 and 55 edos and the JI tunings.  
I list all of the scales here (including rotations) for some tunings... For others I only list 3 of the scales, but you can derive the rest from rotating those 3.
 
For all other edos I only list 3 of the scales, but you can derive the rest from rotating those 3.


== Japanese scales in 12edo ==
== Japanese scales in 12edo ==
Line 115: Line 112:
; Minor pentatonic step pattern
; Minor pentatonic step pattern


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
3\12
3\12
Line 124: Line 121:
</pre>
</pre>


Major pentatonic or ryosen
Major pentatonic or Ryosen
<pre>
<pre>
2\12
2\12
Line 165: Line 162:
</pre>
</pre>


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
23\91
23\91
Line 195: Line 192:
</pre>
</pre>


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
20\79
20\79
Line 225: Line 222:
</pre>
</pre>


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
17\67
17\67
Line 314: Line 311:
; Major pentatonic step pattern
; Major pentatonic step pattern


Major pentatonic or ryosen
Major pentatonic or Ryosen
<pre>
<pre>
9\55
9\55
Line 323: Line 320:
</pre>
</pre>


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
14\55
14\55
Line 339: Line 336:
41\55
41\55
55\55
55\55
</pre>
=== 98edo ===
; Hirajoshi step pattern
Akebono II
<pre>
9\98
41\98
57\98
66\98
98\98
</pre>
Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi
<pre>
16\98
25\98
57\98
66\98
98\98
</pre>
Hirajoshi Mode III or Kumoi II
<pre>
32\98
41\98
73\98
89\98
98\98
</pre>
Hirajoshi Mode V or Kumoi IV
<pre>
32\98
50\98
57\98
89\98
98\98
</pre>
Iwato
<pre>
9\98
41\98
50\98
82\98
98\98
</pre>
; Kokin-Joshi step pattern
Akebono I
<pre>
16\98
25\98
57\98
73\98
98\98
</pre>
Han-Kumoi
<pre>
16\98
41\98
57\98
66\98
98\98
</pre>
Kokin-Joshi
<pre>
9\98
41\98
57\98
82\98
98\98
</pre>
; Major pentatonic step pattern
Major pentatonic or Ryosen
<pre>
16\98
32\98
57\98
73\98
98\98
</pre>
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
25\98
41\98
57\98
82\98
98\98
</pre>
Ritusen
<pre>
16\98
41\98
57\98
73\98
98\98
</pre>
</pre>


Line 421: Line 525:
; Major pentatonic step pattern
; Major pentatonic step pattern


Major pentatonic or ryosen
Major pentatonic or Ryosen
<pre>
<pre>
7\43
7\43
Line 430: Line 534:
</pre>
</pre>


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
11\43
11\43
Line 469: Line 573:
</pre>
</pre>


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
19\74
19\74
Line 499: Line 603:
</pre>
</pre>


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
27\105
27\105
Line 532: Line 636:
</pre>
</pre>


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
17\70
17\70
Line 562: Line 666:
</pre>
</pre>


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
24\99
24\99
Line 615: Line 719:
2\29
2\29
12\29
12\29
15\29
14\29
24\29
24\29
29\29
29\29
Line 651: Line 755:
; Minor pentatonic step pattern
; Minor pentatonic step pattern


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
7\29
7\29
Line 660: Line 764:
</pre>
</pre>


Major pentatonic or ryosen
Major pentatonic or Ryosen
<pre>
<pre>
5\29
5\29
Line 699: Line 803:
</pre>
</pre>


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
25\104
25\104
Line 729: Line 833:
</pre>
</pre>


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
18\75
18\75
Line 820: Line 924:
; Major pentatonic step pattern
; Major pentatonic step pattern


Major pentatonic or ryosen
Major pentatonic or Ryosen
<pre>
<pre>
36/32
36/32
Line 829: Line 933:
</pre>
</pre>


Minor pentatonic or min'yo
Minor pentatonic or Min'yo
<pre>
<pre>
38/32
38/32
Line 847: Line 951:
</pre>
</pre>


{{Scale gallery}}
== Music examples ==
; [[Budjarn Lambeth]]
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISO3tO0MjLM ''Improvisation in a mode of han-kumoi (43edo, ~1/5-comma meantone)]'' (2025)
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJkC1RKI3kg ''Improvisation in a mode of hirajoshi (43edo, ~1/5-comma meantone)]'' (2025)
 
== To-do ==
Tunings that I '''have yet to try properly''' and plan to try in future:
* Over-3, -5, -7, -11, -13, -17, -19 & -23 primodality
** Semiprime modes of the above
* [[Compton]][36] in [[60edo]], [[72edo]], [[84edo]] & [[96edo]]
* [[User:BudjarnLambeth/Substitute harmonic|Narrowed compton]] tunings
* [[Ripple]] tunings
* [[Passion]] tunings
* [[Injera]]
* [[Diaschismic]]
* [[Srutal]]
* [[Pajara]]
* [[Fog]]
* [[Misty]]
* [[August]]
* [[Unlit]]
* [[Undim]]
* [[Bidia]]
* [[Hexe]]
 
== See also ==
* [[User:BudjarnLambeth/Trippy warped hirajoshi scale]]
* [[37edo#Scales]] (has strange versions of hirajoshi and akebono I)
 
{{Navbox scale gallery}}


[[Category:5-tone scales]]
[[Category:5-tone scales]]

Latest revision as of 12:26, 1 May 2026

In my personal subjective opinion:

The best-sounding tunings for most Japanese scales are:

Other tunings that aren't quite as good as those, but still very good, for most Japanese scales are:

Tunings that sound bad to me include:

  • The most obvious 5-limit just intonation interpetations of the scales: these have too many wolf intervals-between-intervals
  • Pythagorean and similar tunings (e.g. schismic, garibaldi, cassandra, andromeda, 65edo, 53edo, 41edo) - these have the same wolf problems as the just interpretations
  • Any meantone tuning with fifths flatter than 2/9-comma (e.g. 31edo, quarter-comma, 50edo, 1/3-comma) - these include some tritones which are a bit sharper than 10/7, and to my ears those just sound unbearably bitter
  • Any leapday tuning close to 46edo - the 10/7 tritone gets too sharp which makes the whole scale too bitter, like in the flatter meantone tunings


For all these tunings, any note will work as the tonic but my favourite is somewhere between 100 and 120 Hz (G#, Ab, A, A# or Bb).


For all these tunings, any timbre will work but I especially like the Scale Workshop "piano" aperiodic timbre with a percussive (medium) envelope and moderate reverb, as to me it sounds like a koto.


The remainder of this page will list various Japanese scales in various tunings that I consider "good" for these scales.

I list all of the scales here (including rotations) for some tunings... For others I only list 3 of the scales, but you can derive the rest from rotating those 3.

Japanese scales in 12edo

Hirajoshi step pattern

Akebono II 

1\12
5\12
7\12
8\12
12\12

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

2\12
3\12
7\12
8\12
12\12

Hirajoshi Mode III or Kumoi II 

4\12
5\12
9\12
11\12
12\12

Hirajoshi Mode V or Kumoi IV 

4\12
6\12
7\12
11\12
12\12

Iwato 

1\12
5\12
6\12
10\12
12\12
Kokin-Joshi step pattern

Akebono I 

2\12
3\12
7\12
9\12
12\12

Han-Kumoi 

2\12
5\12
7\12
8\12
12\12

Kokin-Joshi 

1\12
5\12
7\12
10\12
12\12
Minor pentatonic step pattern

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

3\12
5\12
7\12
10\12
12\12

Major pentatonic or Ryosen 

2\12
4\12
7\12
9\12
12\12

Ritusen 

2\12
5\12
7\12
9\12
12\12

Japanese scales in meantone tunings

91edo (~1/7-comma)

The others can be derived by rotating these.

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

15\91
23\91
53\91
61\91
91\91

Akebono I 

15\91
23\91
53\91
68\91
91\91

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

23\91
38\91
53\91
76\91
91\91

79edo

The others can be derived by rotating these.

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

13\79
20\79
46\79
53\79
79\79

Akebono I 

13\79
20\79
46\79
59\79
79\79

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

20\79
33\79
46\79
66\79
79\79

67edo (~1/6-comma)

The others can be derived by rotating these.

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

11\67
17\67
39\67
45\67
67\67

Akebono I 

11\67
17\67
39\67
50\67
67\67

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

17\67
28\67
39\67
56\67
67\67

55edo

Hirajoshi step pattern

Akebono II 

5\55
23\55
32\55
37\55
55\55

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

9\55
14\55
32\55
37\55
55\55

Hirajoshi Mode III or Kumoi II 

18\55
23\55
41\55
50\55
55\55

Hirajoshi Mode V or Kumoi IV 

18\55
28\55
32\55
50\55
55\55

Iwato 

5\55
23\55
28\55
46\55
55\55
Kokin-Joshi step pattern

Akebono I 

9\55
14\55
32\55
41\55
55\55

Han-Kumoi 

9\55
23\55
32\55
37\55
55\55

Kokin-Joshi 

5\55
23\55
32\55
46\55
55\55
Major pentatonic step pattern

Major pentatonic or Ryosen 

9\55
18\55
32\55
41\55
55\55

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

14\55
23\55
32\55
46\55
55\55

Ritusen 

9\55
23\55
32\55
41\55
55\55

98edo

Hirajoshi step pattern

Akebono II 

9\98
41\98
57\98
66\98
98\98

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

16\98
25\98
57\98
66\98
98\98

Hirajoshi Mode III or Kumoi II 

32\98
41\98
73\98
89\98
98\98

Hirajoshi Mode V or Kumoi IV 

32\98
50\98
57\98
89\98
98\98

Iwato 

9\98
41\98
50\98
82\98
98\98
Kokin-Joshi step pattern

Akebono I 

16\98
25\98
57\98
73\98
98\98

Han-Kumoi 

16\98
41\98
57\98
66\98
98\98

Kokin-Joshi 

9\98
41\98
57\98
82\98
98\98
Major pentatonic step pattern

Major pentatonic or Ryosen 

16\98
32\98
57\98
73\98
98\98

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

25\98
41\98
57\98
82\98
98\98

Ritusen 

16\98
41\98
57\98
73\98
98\98

43edo (~1/5-comma)

Hirajoshi step pattern

Akebono II 

4\43
18\43
25\43
29\43
43\43

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

7\43
11\43
25\43
29\43
43\43

Hirajoshi Mode III or Kumoi II 

14\43
18\43
32\43
39\43
43\43

Hirajoshi Mode V or Kumoi IV 

14\43
22\43
25\43
39\43
43\43

Iwato 

4\43
18\43
22\43
36\43
43\43
Kokin-Joshi step pattern

Akebono I 

7\43
11\43
25\43
32\43
43\43

Han-Kumoi 

7\43
18\43
25\43
29\43
43\43

Kokin-Joshi 

4\43
18\43
25\43
36\43
43\43
Major pentatonic step pattern

Major pentatonic or Ryosen 

7\43
14\43
25\43
32\43
43\43

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

11\43
18\43
25\43
36\43
43\43

Ritusen 

7\43
18\43
25\43
32\43
43\43

74edo (~3/14-comma)

The others can be derived by rotating these.

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

12\74
19\74
43\74
50\74
74\74

Akebono I 

12\74
19\74
43\74
55\74
74\74

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

19\74
31\74
43\74
62\74
74\74

105edo (~2/9-comma, ~meantone CTE tuning)

The others can be derived by rotating these.

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

17\105
27\105
61\105
71\105
105\105

Akebono I 

17\105
27\105
61\105
78\105
105\105

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

27\105
44\105
61\105
88\105
105\105


Japanese scales in undecental or leapday tunings

70edo

The others can be derived by rotating these.

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

12\70
17\70
41\70
46\70
70\70

Akebono I 

12\70
17\70
41\70
53\70
70\70

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

17\70
29\70
41\70
58\70
70\70

99edo

The others can be derived by rotating these.

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

17\99
24\99
58\99
65\99
99\99

Akebono I 

17\99
24\99
58\99
75\99
99\99

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

24\99
41\99
58\99
82\99
99\99

29edo

Hirajoshi step pattern

Akebono II 

2\29
12\29
17\29
19\29
29\29

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

5\29
7\29
17\29
19\29
29\29

Hirajoshi Mode III or Kumoi II 

10\29
12\29
22\29
27\29
29\29

Hirajoshi Mode V or Kumoi IV 

10\29
15\29
17\29
27\29
29\29

Iwato 

2\29
12\29
14\29
24\29
29\29
Kokin-Joshi step pattern

Akebono I 

5\29
7\29
17\29
22\29
29\29

Han-Kumoi 

5\29
12\29
17\29
19\29
29\29

Kokin-Joshi 

2\29
12\29
17\29
24\29
29\29
Minor pentatonic step pattern

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

7\29
12\29
17\29
24\29
29\29

Major pentatonic or Ryosen 

5\29
10\29
17\29
22\29
29\29

Ritusen 

5\29
12\29
17\29
22\29
29\29

104edo

The others can be derived by rotating these.

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

18\104
25\104
61\104
68\104
104\104

Akebono I 

18\104
25\104
61\104
79\104
104\104

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

25\104
43\104
61\104
86\104
104\104

75edo

The others can be derived by rotating these.

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

13\75
18\75
44\75
49\75
75\75

Akebono I 

13\75
18\75
44\75
57\75
75\75

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

18\75
31\75
44\75
62\75
75\75

Japanese scales in primodal JI

Over-2

Hirajoshi step pattern

Akebono II 

34/32
43/32
48/32
51/32
64/32

Hirajoshi or Kata-Kumoi 

36/32
38/32
48/32
51/32
64/32

Hirajoshi Mode III or Kumoi II 

40/32
43/32
54/32
60/32
64/32

Hirajoshi Mode V or Kumoi IV 

40/32
45/32
48/32
60/32
64/32

Iwato 

68/64
86/64
91/64
114/64
128/64
Kokin-Joshi step pattern

Akebono I 

36/32
38/32
48/32
54/32
64/32

Han-Kumoi 

36/32
43/32
48/32
51/32
64/32

Kokin-Joshi 

34/32
43/32
48/32
57/32
64/32
Major pentatonic step pattern

Major pentatonic or Ryosen 

36/32
40/32
48/32
54/32
64/32

Minor pentatonic or Min'yo 

38/32
43/32
48/32
57/32
64/32

Ritusen 

36/32
43/32
48/32
54/32
64/32

Music examples

Budjarn Lambeth

To-do

Tunings that I have yet to try properly and plan to try in future:

See also


View • Talk • EditScale galleries
JI scales 12-tone JI • Combination product set • Constant structure • Harry Partch-related • Maximal harmony epimorphic • MOS transversal • Non-octave JI • Wakalix • Z-polygon transversal • Other JI
Full list: Category:Just intonation scales
Tempered scales 11-tone MOS • 12-tone tempered • Chromatic pair • Clipper • Double mode • Essentially tempered • Fantasy detemper • Marvel woo • Meantone • Min ambiguity • MOS cradle • Negri-9 • Neutral third • Non-octave tempered • Scalesmith systematic • Ternary • Other tempered
Full list: Category:Tempered scales
Scales in EDOs in 10edo • 11 • 13 • 14 • 15 • 16 • 17 • 18 • 19 • 20 • 21 • 22 • 23 • 24 • 25 • 26 • 27 • 28 • 29 • 30 • 31 • 33 • 34 • 35 • 36 • 37 • 38 • 40 • 41 • 42 • 43 • 46 • 49 • 53 • 72 • 80
All other scale gallery pages are included in Category:Lists of scales
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