User talk:Sintel - Revision history

Cmloegcmluin: /* Plucker rewrite */

2025-06-16T14:30:56Z

Plucker rewrite

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	::::: It's not really worth your time right now unless you already have some math prerequisites. And yeah, just now they were removed from all temperament data, so you don't have to worry about it. – [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 10:16, 13 June 2025 (UTC)		::::: It's not really worth your time right now unless you already have some math prerequisites. And yeah, just now they were removed from all temperament data, so you don't have to worry about it. – [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 10:16, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

			:::::: Since there's so much buzz about multimaps these days and I don't see anyone referencing the excellent resource Dave and I assembled a few years back, here it is, specifically the section where we attempt to give any reason to use them (this part was difficult, haha): https://en.xen.wiki/w/Dave_Keenan_%26_Douglas_Blumeyer%27s_guide_to_EA_for_RTT#Advantages_of_EA We basically just did this in an attempt to prove to the people who used them that we understood them well enough to show that nobody needed them. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin\|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin\|talk]]) 14:30, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Sintel: /* Plucker rewrite */

2025-06-13T10:16:57Z

Plucker rewrite

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:16, 13 June 2025
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	:::: I followed those links — still looks like an awful lot of stuff that requires some mathematics that I don't have. I guess I'll have to follow the lead of what seems to be the current direction on the Xenharmonic Wiki and just make do without. On the bright side, if I understand correctly, if I ever need to describe a temperament that isn't described on here, this removal will make the work a bit easier. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 23:03, 12 June 2025 (UTC)		:::: I followed those links — still looks like an awful lot of stuff that requires some mathematics that I don't have. I guess I'll have to follow the lead of what seems to be the current direction on the Xenharmonic Wiki and just make do without. On the bright side, if I understand correctly, if I ever need to describe a temperament that isn't described on here, this removal will make the work a bit easier. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 23:03, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

			::::: It's not really worth your time right now unless you already have some math prerequisites. And yeah, just now they were removed from all temperament data, so you don't have to worry about it. – [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 10:16, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* Plucker rewrite */ Checked out the links about wedgies, but I still can't figure them out

2025-06-12T23:03:55Z

Plucker rewrite: Checked out the links about wedgies, but I still can't figure them out

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:03, 12 June 2025
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	::: @Lucius Chiaraviglio 'wedgies' are called 'Plücker coordinates' in the real world, they're a way to assign natural coordinates to matrices, which have some interesting geometrical properties that makes them useful. Too much to explain here, but I'll refer you to [[Plücker coordinates]] and [[Hodge dual]], which has some example computations. Let me know if there's any way I can make the content more accessible. – [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 11:44, 12 June 2025 (UTC)		::: @Lucius Chiaraviglio 'wedgies' are called 'Plücker coordinates' in the real world, they're a way to assign natural coordinates to matrices, which have some interesting geometrical properties that makes them useful. Too much to explain here, but I'll refer you to [[Plücker coordinates]] and [[Hodge dual]], which has some example computations. Let me know if there's any way I can make the content more accessible. – [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 11:44, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

			:::: I followed those links — still looks like an awful lot of stuff that requires some mathematics that I don't have. I guess I'll have to follow the lead of what seems to be the current direction on the Xenharmonic Wiki and just make do without. On the bright side, if I understand correctly, if I ever need to describe a temperament that isn't described on here, this removal will make the work a bit easier. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 23:03, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Sintel: /* Plucker rewrite */

2025-06-12T11:44:51Z

Plucker rewrite

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:44, 12 June 2025
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	:::: It appears to be some kind of matrix thing called a "multival" that represents a temperament. Most people on the Discord agree that they are effectively useless, hence I have been working on largely removing them from the wiki as part of [[User:VectorGraphics/Operation_Loosen_Underpants\|Operation Loosen Underpants]]. Check [[Plucker coordinates]] for Sintel's explanation. -- [[User:VectorGraphics\|VectorGraphics]] ([[User talk:VectorGraphics\|talk]]) 05:54, 12 June 2025 (UTC)		:::: It appears to be some kind of matrix thing called a "multival" that represents a temperament. Most people on the Discord agree that they are effectively useless, hence I have been working on largely removing them from the wiki as part of [[User:VectorGraphics/Operation_Loosen_Underpants\|Operation Loosen Underpants]]. Check [[Plucker coordinates]] for Sintel's explanation. -- [[User:VectorGraphics\|VectorGraphics]] ([[User talk:VectorGraphics\|talk]]) 05:54, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

			::: As you might know I've been the one to remove most references to exterior algebra on the wiki. I want to document the techniques properly though, since they're actually useful for people who want some deeper understanding. If by "retiring wedgies entirely" you mean removing them from the temperament sections, I agree. Also why is this on my user talk? If you have any comments specifically on [[Plücker coordinates]], please state them there for future reference.

			::: @Lucius Chiaraviglio 'wedgies' are called 'Plücker coordinates' in the real world, they're a way to assign natural coordinates to matrices, which have some interesting geometrical properties that makes them useful. Too much to explain here, but I'll refer you to [[Plücker coordinates]] and [[Hodge dual]], which has some example computations. Let me know if there's any way I can make the content more accessible. – [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 11:44, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

VectorGraphics at 05:54, 12 June 2025

2025-06-12T05:54:30Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:54, 12 June 2025
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	::: Could someone explain to me what a wedgie even is? I went to the page for that and never could figure it out. It says "This page or section may be difficult to understand to those unfamiliar with the mathematical concepts involved." No kidding. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 05:29, 12 June 2025 (UTC)		::: Could someone explain to me what a wedgie even is? I went to the page for that and never could figure it out. It says "This page or section may be difficult to understand to those unfamiliar with the mathematical concepts involved." No kidding. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 05:29, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

			:::: It appears to be some kind of matrix thing called a "multival" that represents a temperament. Most people on the Discord agree that they are effectively useless, hence I have been working on largely removing them from the wiki as part of [[User:VectorGraphics/Operation_Loosen_Underpants\|Operation Loosen Underpants]]. Check [[Plucker coordinates]] for Sintel's explanation. -- [[User:VectorGraphics\|VectorGraphics]] ([[User talk:VectorGraphics\|talk]]) 05:54, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* Plucker rewrite */ What is a wedgie anyway.

2025-06-12T05:29:02Z

Plucker rewrite: What is a wedgie anyway.

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:29, 12 June 2025
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	:: Well, why are we not retiring wedgies entirely, then, if they have no musical relevance? -- [[User:VectorGraphics\|VectorGraphics]] ([[User talk:VectorGraphics\|talk]]) 02:53, 12 June 2025 (UTC)		:: Well, why are we not retiring wedgies entirely, then, if they have no musical relevance? -- [[User:VectorGraphics\|VectorGraphics]] ([[User talk:VectorGraphics\|talk]]) 02:53, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

			::: Could someone explain to me what a wedgie even is? I went to the page for that and never could figure it out. It says "This page or section may be difficult to understand to those unfamiliar with the mathematical concepts involved." No kidding. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 05:29, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

VectorGraphics at 02:53, 12 June 2025

2025-06-12T02:53:34Z

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	: There's barely any musical application, I can't magically make it more relevant than it is. Do you think the current [[wedgies and multivals]] page does a better job? If so in what way? – [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 21:53, 11 June 2025 (UTC)		: There's barely any musical application, I can't magically make it more relevant than it is. Do you think the current [[wedgies and multivals]] page does a better job? If so in what way? – [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 21:53, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

			:: Well, why are we not retiring wedgies entirely, then, if they have no musical relevance? -- [[User:VectorGraphics\|VectorGraphics]] ([[User talk:VectorGraphics\|talk]]) 02:53, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Sintel: /* Plucker rewrite */

2025-06-11T21:53:03Z

Plucker rewrite

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:53, 11 June 2025
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	-- [[User:VectorGraphics\|VectorGraphics]] ([[User talk:VectorGraphics\|talk]]) 21:31, 11 June 2025 (UTC)		-- [[User:VectorGraphics\|VectorGraphics]] ([[User talk:VectorGraphics\|talk]]) 21:31, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

			: There's barely any musical application, I can't magically make it more relevant than it is. Do you think the current [[wedgies and multivals]] page does a better job? If so in what way? – [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 21:53, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

VectorGraphics at 21:31, 11 June 2025

2025-06-11T21:31:22Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:31, 11 June 2025
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	::: Common examples like collapsed and equalized scales are more accurately described as {{w\|Degeneracy (mathematics)\|degenerate}} than {{w\|Pathological (mathematics)\|pathological}}. If you look at examples of pathological objects in mathematics from the Wikipedia article, you'll notice that they're not just "exaggerated" versions of common stuff, they really behave strangely and unintuitively. --[[User:Fredg999\|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999\|talk]]) 15:10, 16 April 2025 (UTC)		::: Common examples like collapsed and equalized scales are more accurately described as {{w\|Degeneracy (mathematics)\|degenerate}} than {{w\|Pathological (mathematics)\|pathological}}. If you look at examples of pathological objects in mathematics from the Wikipedia article, you'll notice that they're not just "exaggerated" versions of common stuff, they really behave strangely and unintuitively. --[[User:Fredg999\|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999\|talk]]) 15:10, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
	:::: I thought about collapsed and equalized, but decided those don't really belong to "pathological" — but I am still willing to propose that something like a diatonic scale with a negative value for ''s'' is pathological, since you end up with with D sharper than E in the same octave, and B of one octave sharper than C of the next octave. An example on the other end of the Meantone spectrum would be 5L 2s with a fifth flatter than 7edo, but continuing down the Meantone spectrum instead of switching to Mavila   here the sharp of one note is flatter than the flat of the same note, and thirds which sound major are actually minor and vice versa, and you have to redefine how the circle of fifths works or redefine major and minor. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 22:17, 16 April 2025 (UTC)		:::: I thought about collapsed and equalized, but decided those don't really belong to "pathological" — but I am still willing to propose that something like a diatonic scale with a negative value for ''s'' is pathological, since you end up with with D sharper than E in the same octave, and B of one octave sharper than C of the next octave. An example on the other end of the Meantone spectrum would be 5L 2s with a fifth flatter than 7edo, but continuing down the Meantone spectrum instead of switching to Mavila   here the sharp of one note is flatter than the flat of the same note, and thirds which sound major are actually minor and vice versa, and you have to redefine how the circle of fifths works or redefine major and minor. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 22:17, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

			== Plucker rewrite ==

			Please try to use musical terminology first, and describe how you're modelling it mathematically second. Remember that you are not Battaglia.
			Context: [[Plücker coordinates]]

			-- [[User:VectorGraphics\|VectorGraphics]] ([[User talk:VectorGraphics\|talk]]) 21:31, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* Pathological scales */ Expand explanation

2025-04-16T22:17:21Z

Pathological scales: Expand explanation

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:17, 16 April 2025
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	:: So could the term be repurposed for something more useful (like scales with negative or blown-out steps)? [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 10:04, 16 April 2025 (UTC)		:: So could the term be repurposed for something more useful (like scales with negative or blown-out steps)? [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 10:04, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
	::: Common examples like collapsed and equalized scales are more accurately described as {{w\|Degeneracy (mathematics)\|degenerate}} than {{w\|Pathological (mathematics)\|pathological}}. If you look at examples of pathological objects in mathematics from the Wikipedia article, you'll notice that they're not just "exaggerated" versions of common stuff, they really behave strangely and unintuitively. --[[User:Fredg999\|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999\|talk]]) 15:10, 16 April 2025 (UTC)		::: Common examples like collapsed and equalized scales are more accurately described as {{w\|Degeneracy (mathematics)\|degenerate}} than {{w\|Pathological (mathematics)\|pathological}}. If you look at examples of pathological objects in mathematics from the Wikipedia article, you'll notice that they're not just "exaggerated" versions of common stuff, they really behave strangely and unintuitively. --[[User:Fredg999\|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999\|talk]]) 15:10, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
	:::: I thought about collapsed and equalized, but decided those don't really belong to "pathological" — but I am still willing to propose that something like a diatonic scale with a negative value for ''s'' is pathological, since you end up with with D sharper than E in the same octave, and B of one octave sharper than C of the next octave. An example on the other end of the Meantone spectrum would be 5L 2s with a fifth flatter than 7edo, but continuing down the Meantone spectrum instead of switching to Mavila   here the sharp of one note is flatter than the flat of the same note, ~~unless~~ you redefine how the circle of fifths works. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 22:15, 16 April 2025 (UTC)		:::: I thought about collapsed and equalized, but decided those don't really belong to "pathological" — but I am still willing to propose that something like a diatonic scale with a negative value for ''s'' is pathological, since you end up with with D sharper than E in the same octave, and B of one octave sharper than C of the next octave. An example on the other end of the Meantone spectrum would be 5L 2s with a fifth flatter than 7edo, but continuing down the Meantone spectrum instead of switching to Mavila   here the sharp of one note is flatter than the flat of the same note, and thirds which sound major are actually minor and vice versa, and you have to redefine how the circle of fifths works or redefine major and minor. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 22:17, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:17, 16 April 2025
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	:: So could the term be repurposed for something more useful (like scales with negative or blown-out steps)? [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 10:04, 16 April 2025 (UTC)		:: So could the term be repurposed for something more useful (like scales with negative or blown-out steps)? [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 10:04, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
	::: Common examples like collapsed and equalized scales are more accurately described as {{w\|Degeneracy (mathematics)\|degenerate}} than {{w\|Pathological (mathematics)\|pathological}}. If you look at examples of pathological objects in mathematics from the Wikipedia article, you'll notice that they're not just "exaggerated" versions of common stuff, they really behave strangely and unintuitively. --[[User:Fredg999\|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999\|talk]]) 15:10, 16 April 2025 (UTC)		::: Common examples like collapsed and equalized scales are more accurately described as {{w\|Degeneracy (mathematics)\|degenerate}} than {{w\|Pathological (mathematics)\|pathological}}. If you look at examples of pathological objects in mathematics from the Wikipedia article, you'll notice that they're not just "exaggerated" versions of common stuff, they really behave strangely and unintuitively. --[[User:Fredg999\|Fredg999]] ([[User talk:Fredg999\|talk]]) 15:10, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
	:::: I thought about collapsed and equalized, but decided those don't really belong to "pathological" — but I am still willing to propose that something like a diatonic scale with a negative value for ''s'' is pathological, since you end up with with D sharper than E in the same octave, and B of one octave sharper than C of the next octave. An example on the other end of the Meantone spectrum would be 5L 2s with a fifth flatter than 7edo, but continuing down the Meantone spectrum instead of switching to Mavila   here the sharp of one note is flatter than the flat of the same note, ~~unless~~ you redefine how the circle of fifths works. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 22:15, 16 April 2025 (UTC)		:::: I thought about collapsed and equalized, but decided those don't really belong to "pathological" — but I am still willing to propose that something like a diatonic scale with a negative value for ''s'' is pathological, since you end up with with D sharper than E in the same octave, and B of one octave sharper than C of the next octave. An example on the other end of the Meantone spectrum would be 5L 2s with a fifth flatter than 7edo, but continuing down the Meantone spectrum instead of switching to Mavila   here the sharp of one note is flatter than the flat of the same note, and thirds which sound major are actually minor and vice versa, and you have to redefine how the circle of fifths works or redefine major and minor. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 22:17, 16 April 2025 (UTC)