User:Eufalesio/12edo detemperament sequences - Revision history

Eufalesio: Linked everything and touches

2026-06-27T19:31:17Z

Linked everything and touches

Eufalesio: Notation images!

2026-06-27T15:34:11Z

Notation images!

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:34, 27 June 2026
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	== 13-limit ==		== 13-limit ==
	Finding 13-limit 12edo detemperaments is harder, because 12edo notably does a horrible job of approximating primes 11 and 13, which means we have another vals to consider; which is to say, we don't take the direct approximation of some primes, but the next best. Here are 3 vals that I found to be worth of mention.		Finding 13-limit 12edo detemperaments is harder, because 12edo notably does a horrible job of approximating primes 11 and 13, which means we have another vals to consider; which is to say, we don't take the direct approximation of some primes, but the next best. Here are 3 vals that I found to be worth of mention.
	[[File:12detempSequence.png\|center\|thumb\|~~931x931px~~\|Summary of the 12edo paths I took my time to analyze. For the unnamed ones, I won't be the one to name them.]]		[[File:12detempSequence.png\|center\|thumb\|940x940px\|Summary of the 12edo paths I took my time to analyze. For the unnamed ones, I won't be the one to name them.]]

	=== 12e ===		=== 12e ===
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	=== 12de ===		=== 12de ===
	This is one sequence I haven't explored too much beyond the 19-limit, as results were inconclusive. 17 is very easy to reach in srutal, equated with 16/15. 19-limit? Not that good, and not that extendable. Donar has an accurate but unusable extension to the 19-limit, requiring a jaw dropping +24 half-valinorsmas to reach qualities of 17/16 and 19/16. I don't deem it easily extendable beyond this.		This is one sequence I haven't explored too much beyond the 19-limit, as results were inconclusive. 17 is very easy to reach in srutal, equated with 16/15. 19-limit? Not that good, and not that extendable. Donar has an accurate but unusable extension to the 19-limit, requiring a jaw dropping +24 half-valinorsmas to reach qualities of 17/16 and 19/16. I don't deem it easily extendable beyond this.

			== Notation ==
			Notation and temperament are parts of the same coin RTT-wise, and since the temperaments are different, the notations are different. Here are the notations for 12e and 12f (12de not designed):
			[[File:ULTRAOLYMPIANsymbolset.jpg\|center\|thumb\|940x940px\|The notation for the Ultimate and ULTRAOLYMPIC sequence, as I call them... see here [[User:Eufalesio/Ultimate#Nomenclature and notation\|here]] for more info about this specific notation.]]
			[[File:12fSymbolSet.jpg\|center\|thumb\|940x940px\|See what I was referring to when I said that 19/16 is extremely painful? Goodness! Looks like [https://lostinthecloudblog.com/2010/03/13/john-stump-composer-of-faeries-aire-and-death-waltz/ Fairie's Aire and Death Waltz]!]]

Eufalesio: Added image and 19-limit

2026-06-27T15:16:02Z

Added image and 19-limit

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:16, 27 June 2026
Line 78:		Line 78:
	== 13-limit ==		== 13-limit ==
	Finding 13-limit 12edo detemperaments is harder, because 12edo notably does a horrible job of approximating primes 11 and 13, which means we have another vals to consider; which is to say, we don't take the direct approximation of some primes, but the next best. Here are 3 vals that I found to be worth of mention.		Finding 13-limit 12edo detemperaments is harder, because 12edo notably does a horrible job of approximating primes 11 and 13, which means we have another vals to consider; which is to say, we don't take the direct approximation of some primes, but the next best. Here are 3 vals that I found to be worth of mention.
			[[File:12detempSequence.png\|center\|thumb\|931x931px\|Summary of the 12edo paths I took my time to analyze. For the unnamed ones, I won't be the one to name them.]]

	=== 12e ===		=== 12e ===
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	Maps 11/8 to a tritone, 13/8 to a major sixth. It is the best val temperament wise. All the corrections of primes 5 to 13 are in the same direction. There are two good paths to consider, through tridecimal compton and through diaschismic. Through tridecimal compton, the path ends at [[Marvel family#Helios\|helios]], yet another marvel temperament, which either way is very similar to compton still... so just use 72edo.		Maps 11/8 to a tritone, 13/8 to a major sixth. It is the best val temperament wise. All the corrections of primes 5 to 13 are in the same direction. There are two good paths to consider, through tridecimal compton and through diaschismic. Through tridecimal compton, the path ends at [[Marvel family#Helios\|helios]], yet another marvel temperament, which either way is very similar to compton still... so just use 72edo.

	Through diaschismic, things get brighter. I don't really like diaschismic, but it can be detempered into the rank-3 46 & 58 & 270, which is more accurate than Ultimate, altering primes 5-13 by -2, -3, -5, -6 half-[[176/175\|valinorsmas]]. It can be detempered into the ultra-accurate rank-4 {9801/9800, 123201/123200} by ~~observing~~ [[~~Ibnsinma\|ibnsinmas~~]], and ends at rank-5 [[chalmersic]].		Through diaschismic, things get brighter. I don't really like diaschismic, but it can be detempered into the rank-3 46 & 58 & 270, which is more accurate than Ultimate, altering primes 5-13 by -2, -3, -5, -6 half-[[176/175\|valinorsmas]]. It can be detempered into the ultra-accurate rank-4 [https://sintel.pythonanywhere.com/result?subgroup=2.3.5.7.11.13&reduce=off&weights=unweighted&target=&edos=46+%26+58+%26+270+%26+2460&submit_edo=submit&commas= {9801/9800, 123201/123200}] by subtracting an [[ibnsinma]] to primes 7,11,13, and ends at rank-5 [[chalmersic]].

	=== 12de ===		=== 12de ===
	Maps 7/4 to a major sixth, 11/8 to a fourth, 13/8 to a minor sixth. It is an [[exotemperament]]; but... if you can stomach the weirdly mapped 7/4, you can go places. The diaschisma is also tempered out but you go through [[srutal]], and this can be dempered into the best 13-limit temperament: [[donar]]. It is much more accurate than Ultimate and 46 & 58 & 270. It alters primes 5-13 by -2, +8, +6, +5 half-valinorsmas. Donar then can be detempered into {9801/9800, 123201/123200} or {4375/4374, 4225/4224}, both to chalmersic.		Maps 7/4 to a major sixth, 11/8 to a fourth, 13/8 to a minor sixth. It is an [[exotemperament]]; but... if you can stomach the weirdly mapped 7/4, you can go places. The diaschisma is also tempered out but you go through [[srutal]], and this can be dempered into the best 13-limit temperament: [[donar]]. It is much more accurate than Ultimate and 46 & 58 & 270. It alters primes 5-13 by -2, +8, +6, +5 half-valinorsmas. Donar then can be detempered into {9801/9800, 123201/123200} or [https://sintel.pythonanywhere.com/result?subgroup=2.3.5.7.11.13&reduce=off&weights=unweighted&target=&edos=46+%26+58+%26+270+%26+2460&commas=4375%2F4374%0D%0AS65&submit_comma=submit {4375/4374, 4225/4224}], both to chalmersic.

	Through the pontiac route you get [[Schismatic family#Quadrapont\|Quadrapont]], pontiac with 4th octaves, You either way can detemper into donar, or whatever the hell 12de & 53 & 171 is. That thing can only detemper into {4375/4374, 4225/4224} by observing the schisma.		Through the pontiac route you get [[Schismatic family#Quadrapont\|Quadrapont]], pontiac with 4th octaves, You either way can detemper into donar, or whatever the hell 12de & 53 & 171 is. That thing can only detemper into {4375/4374, 4225/4224} by observing the schisma.

			== 19-limit ==
			Extending the paths into the 19-limit is tricky for some val sequences. Here is a brief summary of my finds:

			=== 12e ===
			Cassandra and Ultimate are both easy 19-limit temperaments. By tempering out 1225/1224 and 1216/1215, the temps can be strongly extended to include the two new primes. Ultimate is notable as arguably the best [[yazalathana]], altering the minor third of cassandra by +1 minicomma with great accuracy and negligible extra error.

			17 is more complex and less accurately tuned, but still within reasonable use and accuracy... though, it needs the 12e'''g''' val. This can mitigated if you use [[Buzzardsma\|buzzardmas]] as accidentals... but still, kinda sorta not the best.

			In Olympic, you '''must''' use the weak extension [[Catalog of rank-4 temperaments#Metaolympic\|Metaolympic]], in which your garischisma is split in two heavily inflated [[10241/10240]] halves, and you use one of these halves to reach 17/16 and 19/16, -1 and +1 respectively. Through [[User:Eufalesio/Ultimate#Insatinismic AKA Batshittin\|Batshittin]] (a weak extension of Batshit), you use the same 10241/10240 and [[Mina\|minas]]; 4096/4095 ~ 4225/4224.

			=== 12f ===
			17 is very easy to reach in diaschismic, equated with 16/15. 19/16 is kinda shit... the best extension I could find is 46h & 58, which is the one that can extend beyond better. [https://sintel.pythonanywhere.com/result?subgroup=2.3.5.7.11.13.19&reduce=off&weights=unweighted&target=&edos=46h+%26+58+%26+270&submit_edo=submit&commas=%0D%0AS65%0D%0A4375%2F4374%0D%0A14400%2F14399%0D%0AS2431 46h & 58 & 270] is very good in the yazalathana, but sucks for prime 17 [https://sintel.pythonanywhere.com/result?subgroup=2.3.5.7.11.13.17.19&reduce=off&weights=unweighted&target=&edos=46h+%26+58+%26+270&submit_edo=submit&commas=%0D%0AS65%0D%0A4375%2F4374%0D%0A14400%2F14399%0D%0AS2431 (as seen here)], which is considerably less accurate.

			However, things get better as you use the rank-4, as 10241/10240 and the [[scintillisma]] are added into the comma mix. This alone is a top-tier temperament, to an extent easily writable in a score (though 19/16 is extremely painful). The chalmersic extension adds the scintillisma and 104976/104975 or 228096/228095 into the mix, requiring kalismas to notate 17/16 and 19/16, not primes 2-13.

			As an extra... the rank-4 apparently has a [https://sintel.pythonanywhere.com/result?subgroup=23&reduce=off&weights=unweighted&target=&edos=46h+%26+58+%26+270+%26+2460&submit_edo=submit&commas=%0D%0AS65%0D%0A4375%2F4374%0D%0A14400%2F14399%0D%0AS2431 strong extension] to the 23-limit! I don't know what that is, though.

			=== 12de ===
			This is one sequence I haven't explored too much beyond the 19-limit, as results were inconclusive. 17 is very easy to reach in srutal, equated with 16/15. 19-limit? Not that good, and not that extendable. Donar has an accurate but unusable extension to the 19-limit, requiring a jaw dropping +24 half-valinorsmas to reach qualities of 17/16 and 19/16. I don't deem it easily extendable beyond this.

Eufalesio: Birth (WIP)

2026-06-27T14:35:45Z

Birth (WIP)

New page

The chain of fifths is a very important framework historically. It's been in Western music THE way to think about everything all the way from plainchant to Renaissance meantone temperaments to the modern day – where the 12-pitch-class circle of fifths is taught; 12edo remains a massively over-represented tuning. It has a bit of a bad reputation in the xen circles, but the more I researched, the more I realized it is a '''paragon''', and that its position nowadays is very much well earned.

12edo is an undisputed paragon of tonality among music theory of old and young. In the world of xenharmonic music, it is thus extremely desirable, if not necessary, to have a temperament supported by 12edo so that a simple workflow and notation are used. At least, [[RTT]] speaking. I will be neglecting Ringer scales and JI well temperaments as I don't care about them.

The easiest way to detemper 12edo is to observe (untemper) one or many more of its nullified commas; though observing a number of similar sized commas and tempering out their difference also works. This produces a rank-2 temperament. A rank-2 temperament can be "retempered" into a finer edo by adding another comma that 12edo doesn't temper out. All that I've explained here can be done with any rank temperament; rank-2s can be detempered into rank-3s, retempered into much finer edos.

The temperaments I'll be showing always have an whole or split octave period, and a whole or split fifth generator, and in any case, notation-wise from a D, the perfect fifth or fourth is NEVER spelt with an accidental.

== 7-limit ==
Let us take a look at some 7-limit temperaments through the [[Patent val|patent]] [[Val|valuation]] (direct approximation primes 2 through 7); which can be analyzed as tempering out 81/80, 64/63, 225/224; and by extension: 531441/524288, 126/125, 2048/2025, 36/35, 5120/5103... etc.

=== 12 ===
In 12 p.val, 5/4 is a major third, 7/4 is a minor seventh, subsequent temperaments will make modifications to those [[Mapping|mappings]].

* Observing [[64/63]] gives [[septimal meantone]].
* Observing [[81/80]] gives [[pajara]].
* Observing and tempering together 64/63 and 81/80 gives [[garibaldi]].
* Observing [[225/224]] and tempering together 64/63 and 81/80 whilst tempering out [[126/125]] gives [[septimal diaschismic]].
* Observing 64/63 and 81/80 whilst tempering out [[531441/524288]] gives [[compton]].

These are rank-2 temperaments, which then can be retempered into finer edos by tempering out another comma not on the list;

* With septimal meantone:
** Adding [[126/125]] or [[1029/1024]] or [[1728/1715]] gives 31edo.
** Adding [[15625/15552]] or [[3125/3072]] or [[49/48]] gives 19edo.
** Adding [[16807/16384]] gives [[50edo]].
* With pajara:
** Adding [[250/243]] gives 22edo.
** Adding [[4375/4374]] gives 34edo, through the [[Wart notation|34d]] [[val]].
** Adding [[686/675]] gives 56edo.
* With garibaldi:
** Adding 3125/3072 or [[245/243]] or [[2401/2400]] gives [[41edo]].
** Adding 15625/15552 or 4375/4374 gives [[53edo]].
** Adding the [[wizma]] or [[stearnsma]] gives [[94edo]].
* With septimal diaschismic:
** Adding 245/243 or 4375/4374 gives 46edo.
** Adding 1728/1715 gives 58edo.

* With compton:
** Adding 15625/15552 or 4375/4374 or 2401/2400 gives 72edo.

Any of these rank-2s can be detempered into a rank-3 temperament which only tempers out one comma. The ones I deem most notable are:

* [[Marvel-syntonic equivalence continuum|Marvel]] {225/224}
* [[Aberschismic]] {5120/5103}
* [[Orthoschismic]] {32805/32768}
* [[Garischismic]] {33554432/33480783'''}'''

=== 12d ===
Taking the next best approximation of 7/4, a major sixth, however stupid that might sound... another family of temperaments can be derived. 12d can be analyzed as tempering out 81/80, 4375/4374, [[2048/2025]]. This is a bad exotemperament because it implies 21/20, 28/27 are tempered out; but so are 32805/32768, and [[875/864]].

* Observing 2048/2045 gives [[flattone]].
* Observing 81/80 gives [[srutal]].
* Observing and tempering 2048/2405 and 81/80 together whilst tempering out 4375/4374 gives [[pontiac]].

With flattone:

* Adding [[50/49]] gives 26edo.
* Adding 3125/3087 gives [[45edo]].

With srutal:

* Adding 126/125 or 245/243 gives 46edo.
* Adding 1728/1715 or [[4000/3969]] gives [[80edo]].

With pontiac:

* Adding 225/224 or 5120/5103 or 15625/15552 gives 53edo.
* Adding 1029/1024 or 3136/3125 gives [[118edo]].
* Adding 2401/2400 or wizma gives [[171edo]].
* Adding 16875/16807 gives [[224edo]].

Through this val, I deem the following rank-3 temperaments notable:

* Ragismic {4375/4374}
* Orthoschismic {32805/32768}

== 13-limit ==
Finding 13-limit 12edo detemperaments is harder, because 12edo notably does a horrible job of approximating primes 11 and 13, which means we have another vals to consider; which is to say, we don't take the direct approximation of some primes, but the next best. Here are 3 vals that I found to be worth of mention.

=== 12e ===
Maps 11/8 to a fourth, 13/8 to a minor sixth. It is not the best val temperament wise, but since the corrections of p11 and p13 are in opposite directions to 5/4 and 7/4; but for this, the garibaldi extension [[cassandra]] is arguably the best pick, which is just a relabeling of the [[3-limit]], and can be easily detempered further into what I believe to be the [[Cassaschismic|BEST temperament (Ultimate)]]... see [[User:Eufalesio/Ultimate|here]] for more info!

The path through cassandra into Ultimate is the easiest, as it keeps the chain of fifths, and a pythagorean-septimal comma ([[gary]]) with a hyper accurate [[zala]], but adds an independent generator for 5 and 13, a "minicomma" that works as aberschisma ~ major minthma. Thus, the mappings of 5 and 13 can be thought as the same as cassandra, but altered by +1 / -1 minicomma. It can be detempered further into rank-4 [[olympic]] and finally, the goddamn-fucking-insanely accurate rank-5 temp [[5767168/5767125#Insanismic|Batshit AKA ''Insanismic'' for the prudes.]]

It can instead be detempered into [[hecate]], which either cassandra or compton through the shit extension 12e & 72 can do. But I do not recommend going into hecate. It's decent, but it decouples the generic comma of cassandra from the chain of fifths and thus the garischisma is observed, and can't be detempered further into hyper-accurate temperaments.

=== 12f ===
Maps 11/8 to a tritone, 13/8 to a major sixth. It is the best val temperament wise. All the corrections of primes 5 to 13 are in the same direction. There are two good paths to consider, through tridecimal compton and through diaschismic. Through tridecimal compton, the path ends at [[Marvel family#Helios|helios]], yet another marvel temperament, which either way is very similar to compton still... so just use 72edo.

Through diaschismic, things get brighter. I don't really like diaschismic, but it can be detempered into the rank-3 46 & 58 & 270, which is more accurate than Ultimate, altering primes 5-13 by -2, -3, -5, -6 half-[[176/175|valinorsmas]]. It can be detempered into the ultra-accurate rank-4 {9801/9800, 123201/123200} by observing [[Ibnsinma|ibnsinmas]], and ends at rank-5 [[chalmersic]].

=== 12de ===
Maps 7/4 to a major sixth, 11/8 to a fourth, 13/8 to a minor sixth. It is an [[exotemperament]]; but... if you can stomach the weirdly mapped 7/4, you can go places. The diaschisma is also tempered out but you go through [[srutal]], and this can be dempered into the best 13-limit temperament: [[donar]]. It is much more accurate than Ultimate and 46 & 58 & 270. It alters primes 5-13 by -2, +8, +6, +5 half-valinorsmas. Donar then can be detempered into {9801/9800, 123201/123200} or {4375/4374, 4225/4224}, both to chalmersic.

Through the pontiac route you get [[Schismatic family#Quadrapont|Quadrapont]], pontiac with 4th octaves, You either way can detemper into donar, or whatever the hell 12de & 53 & 171 is. That thing can only detemper into {4375/4374, 4225/4224} by observing the schisma.