Talk:Val - Revision history

MisterShafXen: /* Ditch wart notation? */

2026-05-10T16:01:23Z

Ditch wart notation?

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:01, 10 May 2026
Line 67:		Line 67:

	::: The "optimal ET sequences" is its own standard format. I personally am not a fan of it and would prefer some different standard or nonstandard optimal sequence to go alongside it or replace it which could implement what you're talking about while including more notable EDO tunings in the list as the optimal ET sequences can miss crucial patent val tunings. I tried to do this myself some time ago by listing custom lists of notable EDOs, so I'd need some support from others. (In that regards, are you on Discord? I'm osmium (@osmiumic) on Discord.) Other than that, no feedback on what I said? --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 15:30, 10 May 2026 (UTC)		::: The "optimal ET sequences" is its own standard format. I personally am not a fan of it and would prefer some different standard or nonstandard optimal sequence to go alongside it or replace it which could implement what you're talking about while including more notable EDO tunings in the list as the optimal ET sequences can miss crucial patent val tunings. I tried to do this myself some time ago by listing custom lists of notable EDOs, so I'd need some support from others. (In that regards, are you on Discord? I'm osmium (@osmiumic) on Discord.) Other than that, no feedback on what I said? --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 15:30, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

			:::: Hi Godtone, how are you? Sadly, I used to be on Discord but my school WiFi blocks it.

			:::: Is there any chance we can work on lists of notable EDOs, maybe on one of our userspaces? Also, yes, I do see why completely ditching wart letters wouldn't work (yet).

			:::: Btw I just wonder what happens when you want to wart a "formal prime" such as 9 in the 2.9.5.7 subgroup. Sintel makes it easy: just put the alteration (+ or -) in [] brackets, followed by the number 9 (within the brackets).

			:::: Have a great day! G-d bless! [[User:MisterShafXen\|MisterShafXen]] ([[User talk:MisterShafXen\|talk]]) 16:01, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

Godtone: /* Ditch wart notation? */ reply

2026-05-10T15:30:51Z

Ditch wart notation?: reply

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:30, 10 May 2026
Line 65:		Line 65:

	:: G-d bless! [[User:MisterShafXen\|MisterShafXen]] ([[User talk:MisterShafXen\|talk]]) 17:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)		:: G-d bless! [[User:MisterShafXen\|MisterShafXen]] ([[User talk:MisterShafXen\|talk]]) 17:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

			::: The "optimal ET sequences" is its own standard format. I personally am not a fan of it and would prefer some different standard or nonstandard optimal sequence to go alongside it or replace it which could implement what you're talking about while including more notable EDO tunings in the list as the optimal ET sequences can miss crucial patent val tunings. I tried to do this myself some time ago by listing custom lists of notable EDOs, so I'd need some support from others. (In that regards, are you on Discord? I'm osmium (@osmiumic) on Discord.) Other than that, no feedback on what I said? --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 15:30, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

MisterShafXen: /* Ditch wart notation? */

2026-05-09T17:18:26Z

Ditch wart notation?

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:18, 9 May 2026
Line 52:		Line 52:
	Why don't we ditch wart notation? Sintel has demonstrated a much clearer notation on his temperament finder. For example, if you want 13edo mapped with its flat fifth, that would be 13b in wart notation and 13[-3] in Sintel's notation. Which is clearer?		Why don't we ditch wart notation? Sintel has demonstrated a much clearer notation on his temperament finder. For example, if you want 13edo mapped with its flat fifth, that would be 13b in wart notation and 13[-3] in Sintel's notation. Which is clearer?

	To further complicate things, let's say you wanted 26b-edo. Based on what I just said about 13b, one might assume that 26b means 26 with the fifth flattened by 1 ~~edxostep~~. That's not the case, so Sintel swoops in to save the day by using the notation 26[+3] to refer to 26b. In fact, if you want 26 with the fifth flattened by 1 edostep, that would be 26bb. What. The. F. Double. Sharp. Just call it 26[-3] like Sintel does, for goodness sakes!		To further complicate things, let's say you wanted 26b-edo. Based on what I just said about 13b, one might assume that 26b means 26 with the fifth flattened by 1 edostep. That's not the case, so Sintel swoops in to save the day by using the notation 26[+3] to refer to 26b. In fact, if you want 26 with the fifth flattened by 1 edostep, that would be 26bb. What. The. F. Double. Sharp. Just call it 26[-3] like Sintel does, for goodness sakes!

	I hope my point is clear (unlike wart notation): Wart notation is bad. I hope this discussion will be able to continue and result in the END of wart notation.		I hope my point is clear (unlike wart notation): Wart notation is bad. I hope this discussion will be able to continue and result in the END of wart notation.
Line 59:		Line 59:

	: I'd be happy to include sintel's wart notation but I'd prefer to avoid complicating the page, so I'm wondering if the "Sparse Offset Val notation" really needs to be there as I'm not aware of anyone who uses it, but then I'm also not on Facebook so... point being, wart notation is, at least for now, a consistent standard in how ppl specify non-patent vals, with everything else essentially being less standard, so it seems to deserve mention, though maybe it'd be better to link to a separate page explaining all the different wart notations, but that kinda goes back to my point about using letters as in practice it's rare that you need more than two warts for a prime, and if you're interested in an equal temperament you usually know which primes are worst and in what directions. --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 16:14, 9 May 2026 (UTC)		: I'd be happy to include sintel's wart notation but I'd prefer to avoid complicating the page, so I'm wondering if the "Sparse Offset Val notation" really needs to be there as I'm not aware of anyone who uses it, but then I'm also not on Facebook so... point being, wart notation is, at least for now, a consistent standard in how ppl specify non-patent vals, with everything else essentially being less standard, so it seems to deserve mention, though maybe it'd be better to link to a separate page explaining all the different wart notations, but that kinda goes back to my point about using letters as in practice it's rare that you need more than two warts for a prime, and if you're interested in an equal temperament you usually know which primes are worst and in what directions. --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 16:14, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

			:: I also want to point out that on pages containing temperament data, one will often find tunings like 80bbcccef in the optimal ET sequences for tedmperaments. If we used Sintel's notation, 80bbcccef becomes 80[+3, --5, -11, +13]. That's a whole lot clearer!

			:: So, based off what I just said, is there any chance we can go through all the temperament data and at least put Sintel's notation alongside the regular wart notation?

			:: G-d bless! [[User:MisterShafXen\|MisterShafXen]] ([[User talk:MisterShafXen\|talk]]) 17:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

Godtone: /* Ditch wart notation? */ reply

2026-05-09T16:14:34Z

Ditch wart notation?: reply

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:14, 9 May 2026
Line 57:		Line 57:

	G-d bless you all! [[User:MisterShafXen\|MisterShafXen]] ([[User talk:MisterShafXen\|talk]]) 15:47, 9 May 2026 (UTC)		G-d bless you all! [[User:MisterShafXen\|MisterShafXen]] ([[User talk:MisterShafXen\|talk]]) 15:47, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

			: I'd be happy to include sintel's wart notation but I'd prefer to avoid complicating the page, so I'm wondering if the "Sparse Offset Val notation" really needs to be there as I'm not aware of anyone who uses it, but then I'm also not on Facebook so... point being, wart notation is, at least for now, a consistent standard in how ppl specify non-patent vals, with everything else essentially being less standard, so it seems to deserve mention, though maybe it'd be better to link to a separate page explaining all the different wart notations, but that kinda goes back to my point about using letters as in practice it's rare that you need more than two warts for a prime, and if you're interested in an equal temperament you usually know which primes are worst and in what directions. --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 16:14, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

MisterShafXen at 15:47, 9 May 2026

2026-05-09T15:47:11Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:47, 9 May 2026
Line 48:		Line 48:
	== The general problem of the motivation section ==		== The general problem of the motivation section ==
	It focuses too much on how to make inconsistency workable and doesn't touch on how and why to think of the intervals the interval space/lattice way. I'll be giving it a major rewrite to address that. (Update: done.) —[[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 20:36, 7 May 2026 (UTC) (Updated [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 21:05, 7 May 2026 (UTC))		It focuses too much on how to make inconsistency workable and doesn't touch on how and why to think of the intervals the interval space/lattice way. I'll be giving it a major rewrite to address that. (Update: done.) —[[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 20:36, 7 May 2026 (UTC) (Updated [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 21:05, 7 May 2026 (UTC))

			==Ditch wart notation?==
			Why don't we ditch wart notation? Sintel has demonstrated a much clearer notation on his temperament finder. For example, if you want 13edo mapped with its flat fifth, that would be 13b in wart notation and 13[-3] in Sintel's notation. Which is clearer?

			To further complicate things, let's say you wanted 26b-edo. Based on what I just said about 13b, one might assume that 26b means 26 with the fifth flattened by 1 edxostep. That's not the case, so Sintel swoops in to save the day by using the notation 26[+3] to refer to 26b. In fact, if you want 26 with the fifth flattened by 1 edostep, that would be 26bb. What. The. F. Double. Sharp. Just call it 26[-3] like Sintel does, for goodness sakes!

			I hope my point is clear (unlike wart notation): Wart notation is bad. I hope this discussion will be able to continue and result in the END of wart notation.

			G-d bless you all! [[User:MisterShafXen\|MisterShafXen]] ([[User talk:MisterShafXen\|talk]]) 15:47, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

FloraC: /* Some specific problems in the last two edits */ re

2026-05-08T13:21:48Z

Some specific problems in the last two edits: re

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:21, 8 May 2026
Line 29:		Line 29:

	::: Hmm, I still genuinely estimate that adding "(aka. [[frequency ratio]]s)" would be helpful for a beginner and do no harm to the state of the page, cuz "frequency ratio" is essentially the beginner word for "interval" if someone isn't accustomed to the meaning of "interval", EG isn't a musician as many new to xen aren't. I also say this coming from the perspective of concern about negative intervals being unintuitive/potentially confusing to get right in technical speech and consideration while a ratio (a rational number) is extremely straightforward. Also, there was some discussion on Discord that "val" actually comes from "p-adic valuation", which suggests that the preimage is a rational number, not a monzo. In light of this, I'm really curious what you think of [this https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_7525.html#7532] which was linked to me by sintel, as it (apparently) concerns the origin of the term "val". --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 09:46, 8 May 2026 (UTC)		::: Hmm, I still genuinely estimate that adding "(aka. [[frequency ratio]]s)" would be helpful for a beginner and do no harm to the state of the page, cuz "frequency ratio" is essentially the beginner word for "interval" if someone isn't accustomed to the meaning of "interval", EG isn't a musician as many new to xen aren't. I also say this coming from the perspective of concern about negative intervals being unintuitive/potentially confusing to get right in technical speech and consideration while a ratio (a rational number) is extremely straightforward. Also, there was some discussion on Discord that "val" actually comes from "p-adic valuation", which suggests that the preimage is a rational number, not a monzo. In light of this, I'm really curious what you think of [this https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_7525.html#7532] which was linked to me by sintel, as it (apparently) concerns the origin of the term "val". --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 09:46, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

			:::: Quite the opposite, ''interval'' is the beginner word for ''frequency ratio''. All musicians know about intervals, but only the small group of musicians who study JI like us know about frequency ratios. Non-musicians might not know about either, but if they do know about one, it's 99% ''interval''.

			:::: I don't see how negative intervals pose a problem at all. If anything they pose a problem as much as less-than-one ratios do.

			:::: I don't care about the origin of ''val''. Gene is but one who liked computing RTT in terms of ratios but it's not the most common way to do RTT today. I for one have been thinking of ''val'' as the dual of ''interval'' lately and haven't run into any issue.

			:::: In any case, I don't mind replacing ''interval'' with ''frequency ratio'' tho I also don't think it adds anything. I'm against equating them.

			:::: —[[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 13:21, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

	> Tunings of interest		> Tunings of interest

Godtone: reply and concern about the preimage actually being positive rationals rather than monzos

2026-05-08T09:46:30Z

reply and concern about the preimage actually being positive rationals rather than monzos

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:46, 8 May 2026
Line 27:		Line 27:

	:: No? It's the monzo. But whatever it is, we're essentially mapping the thing and not a representation of the thing. —[[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 08:39, 8 May 2026 (UTC)		:: No? It's the monzo. But whatever it is, we're essentially mapping the thing and not a representation of the thing. —[[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 08:39, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

			::: Hmm, I still genuinely estimate that adding "(aka. [[frequency ratio]]s)" would be helpful for a beginner and do no harm to the state of the page, cuz "frequency ratio" is essentially the beginner word for "interval" if someone isn't accustomed to the meaning of "interval", EG isn't a musician as many new to xen aren't. I also say this coming from the perspective of concern about negative intervals being unintuitive/potentially confusing to get right in technical speech and consideration while a ratio (a rational number) is extremely straightforward. Also, there was some discussion on Discord that "val" actually comes from "p-adic valuation", which suggests that the preimage is a rational number, not a monzo. In light of this, I'm really curious what you think of [this https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_7525.html#7532] which was linked to me by sintel, as it (apparently) concerns the origin of the term "val". --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 09:46, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

	> Tunings of interest		> Tunings of interest

FloraC: /* Some specific problems in the last two edits */ re

2026-05-08T08:39:26Z

Some specific problems in the last two edits: re

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:39, 8 May 2026
Line 25:		Line 25:

	: From [[interval\|the page]], we have the definition "An interval is the difference in pitch between two notes. Human pitch perception is logarithmic, therefore an interval can be described with a frequency ratio or a logarithmic measure of that ratio, such as cents". The frequency ratio is the rational number, which is what goes into the mapping function, so seems more accurate than "interval", no? --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:02, 7 May 2026 (UTC)		: From [[interval\|the page]], we have the definition "An interval is the difference in pitch between two notes. Human pitch perception is logarithmic, therefore an interval can be described with a frequency ratio or a logarithmic measure of that ratio, such as cents". The frequency ratio is the rational number, which is what goes into the mapping function, so seems more accurate than "interval", no? --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:02, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

			:: No? It's the monzo. But whatever it is, we're essentially mapping the thing and not a representation of the thing. —[[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 08:39, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

	> Tunings of interest		> Tunings of interest

Godtone: --~~~~

2026-05-07T22:03:03Z

--~~~~

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:03, 7 May 2026
Line 24:		Line 24:
	Intervals can be represented by frequency ratios but intervals aren't frequency ratios!		Intervals can be represented by frequency ratios but intervals aren't frequency ratios!

	: From [[interval\|the page]], we have the definition "An interval is the difference in pitch between two notes. Human pitch perception is logarithmic, therefore an interval can be described with a frequency ratio or a logarithmic measure of that ratio, such as cents". The frequency ratio is the rational number, which is what goes into the mapping function, so seems more accurate than "interval", no?		: From [[interval\|the page]], we have the definition "An interval is the difference in pitch between two notes. Human pitch perception is logarithmic, therefore an interval can be described with a frequency ratio or a logarithmic measure of that ratio, such as cents". The frequency ratio is the rational number, which is what goes into the mapping function, so seems more accurate than "interval", no? --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:02, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

	> Tunings of interest		> Tunings of interest

Godtone: /* Some specific problems in the last two edits */ concern about technical meaning of interval vs frequency ratio

2026-05-07T22:02:32Z

Some specific problems in the last two edits: concern about technical meaning of interval vs frequency ratio

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:02, 7 May 2026
Line 23:		Line 23:

	Intervals can be represented by frequency ratios but intervals aren't frequency ratios!		Intervals can be represented by frequency ratios but intervals aren't frequency ratios!

			: From [[interval\|the page]], we have the definition "An interval is the difference in pitch between two notes. Human pitch perception is logarithmic, therefore an interval can be described with a frequency ratio or a logarithmic measure of that ratio, such as cents". The frequency ratio is the rational number, which is what goes into the mapping function, so seems more accurate than "interval", no?

	> Tunings of interest		> Tunings of interest