Talk:Kite's ups and downs notation - Revision history

TallKite: TallKite moved page Talk:Ups and downs notation to Talk:Kite's ups and downs notation: Editor VectorGraphics has repeatedly edited pages I've written about my own research and inserted misinformation. On discord he is openly hostile to me. This move is necessary to avoid a toxic work environment for me.

2025-08-20T00:56:31Z

TallKite moved page Talk:Ups and downs notation to Talk:Kite's ups and downs notation: Editor VectorGraphics has repeatedly edited pages I've written about my own research and inserted misinformation. On discord he is openly hostile to me. This move is necessary to avoid a toxic work environment for me.

← Older revision	Revision as of 00:56, 20 August 2025
(No difference)

TallKite at 10:10, 23 March 2025

2025-03-23T10:10:34Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:10, 23 March 2025
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	''To cancel'' means to remove the previous effect, but I think what's meant here is to completely replace the previous effect with the new effect, so that the notated down-C sounds a down-C, not a natural C. If I'm right about that, I think ''replace'' is right word to use here. ''To override'' means the same thing as ''to replace'' in this specific context so I'm not sure of the comparison between ''override'' and ''"cancel"'' in the next paragraph. I think the two approaches are addition and replacement/override. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 14:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)		''To cancel'' means to remove the previous effect, but I think what's meant here is to completely replace the previous effect with the new effect, so that the notated down-C sounds a down-C, not a natural C. If I'm right about that, I think ''replace'' is right word to use here. ''To override'' means the same thing as ''to replace'' in this specific context so I'm not sure of the comparison between ''override'' and ''"cancel"'' in the next paragraph. I think the two approaches are addition and replacement/override. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 14:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

			:Done. Sorry it took so long, I only just now noticed this. Feel free to ping me on discord next time. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 10:10, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

ButterBuilding11: Removed talk section

2025-03-23T04:50:03Z

Removed talk section

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:50, 23 March 2025
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	''To cancel'' means to remove the previous effect, but I think what's meant here is to completely replace the previous effect with the new effect, so that the notated down-C sounds a down-C, not a natural C. If I'm right about that, I think ''replace'' is right word to use here. ''To override'' means the same thing as ''to replace'' in this specific context so I'm not sure of the comparison between ''override'' and ''"cancel"'' in the next paragraph. I think the two approaches are addition and replacement/override. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 14:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)		''To cancel'' means to remove the previous effect, but I think what's meant here is to completely replace the previous effect with the new effect, so that the notated down-C sounds a down-C, not a natural C. If I'm right about that, I think ''replace'' is right word to use here. ''To override'' means the same thing as ''to replace'' in this specific context so I'm not sure of the comparison between ''override'' and ''"cancel"'' in the next paragraph. I think the two approaches are addition and replacement/override. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 14:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

	~~== Blackwood Up and Down Accidentals ==~~

	~~Apologies if I offended Kite with my previous edit.~~

	~~Checking if my edits are actually saved before I type out and lose my response again. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:10, 22 March 2025 (UTC)~~

	I wanted to include Blackwood’s contributions because he names his accidentals “up” and “down” just as Kite does (see his article in Perspectives cited below). That way, if anyone comes to this page looking for information on Blackwood’s system, like I did, they aren’t confused. The naming is why I specifically cited Blackwood’s system and not other prior systems which also use arrows as accidentals, like that in Kircher’s Musurgia Universalis mentioned by Nick Vuci in the Discord. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

	However, after reviewing the Discord, I recognize that my appending to Vector’s edit was not the appropriate way to go about this, and for that I apologize. It seems I am currently unable to edit the page itself, so I wanted to propose an additional paragraph here instead to be included under “See Also”: [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

	Easley Blackwood Jr. proposed a system of microtonal accidentals in 1982 with arrows which he also names “up” and “down,” though Blackwood’s system is distinct from Kite’s as described above. Blackwood, Easley. 1991. “Modes and Chord Progressions in Equal Tunings,” ''Perspectives of New Music'' 29, no. 2. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:22, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

	I also might urge moving Kite’s credit, as it seems misplaced under the “See Also” heading, given that the article is specifically describing his system. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:22, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

	Apologies for splitting my paragraphs across multiple posts on this talk page; for some reason, the system did not like me sending it all at once. Thank you so much! [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:23, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

ButterBuilding11 at 08:23, 22 March 2025

2025-03-22T08:23:30Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:23, 22 March 2025
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	I also might urge moving Kite’s credit, as it seems misplaced under the “See Also” heading, given that the article is specifically describing his system. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:22, 22 March 2025 (UTC)		I also might urge moving Kite’s credit, as it seems misplaced under the “See Also” heading, given that the article is specifically describing his system. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:22, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

			Apologies for splitting my paragraphs across multiple posts on this talk page; for some reason, the system did not like me sending it all at once. Thank you so much! [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:23, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

ButterBuilding11 at 08:22, 22 March 2025

2025-03-22T08:22:27Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:22, 22 March 2025
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	Easley Blackwood Jr. proposed a system of microtonal accidentals in 1982 with arrows which he also names “up” and “down,” though Blackwood’s system is distinct from Kite’s as described above. Blackwood, Easley. 1991. “Modes and Chord Progressions in Equal Tunings,” ''Perspectives of New Music'' 29, no. 2. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:22, 22 March 2025 (UTC)		Easley Blackwood Jr. proposed a system of microtonal accidentals in 1982 with arrows which he also names “up” and “down,” though Blackwood’s system is distinct from Kite’s as described above. Blackwood, Easley. 1991. “Modes and Chord Progressions in Equal Tunings,” ''Perspectives of New Music'' 29, no. 2. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:22, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

			I also might urge moving Kite’s credit, as it seems misplaced under the “See Also” heading, given that the article is specifically describing his system. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:22, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

ButterBuilding11 at 08:22, 22 March 2025

2025-03-22T08:22:00Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:22, 22 March 2025
Line 36:		Line 36:

	However, after reviewing the Discord, I recognize that my appending to Vector’s edit was not the appropriate way to go about this, and for that I apologize. It seems I am currently unable to edit the page itself, so I wanted to propose an additional paragraph here instead to be included under “See Also”: [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)		However, after reviewing the Discord, I recognize that my appending to Vector’s edit was not the appropriate way to go about this, and for that I apologize. It seems I am currently unable to edit the page itself, so I wanted to propose an additional paragraph here instead to be included under “See Also”: [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

			Easley Blackwood Jr. proposed a system of microtonal accidentals in 1982 with arrows which he also names “up” and “down,” though Blackwood’s system is distinct from Kite’s as described above. Blackwood, Easley. 1991. “Modes and Chord Progressions in Equal Tunings,” ''Perspectives of New Music'' 29, no. 2. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:22, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

ButterBuilding11 at 08:20, 22 March 2025

2025-03-22T08:20:41Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:20, 22 March 2025
Line 34:		Line 34:

	I wanted to include Blackwood’s contributions because he names his accidentals “up” and “down” just as Kite does (see his article in Perspectives cited below). That way, if anyone comes to this page looking for information on Blackwood’s system, like I did, they aren’t confused. The naming is why I specifically cited Blackwood’s system and not other prior systems which also use arrows as accidentals, like that in Kircher’s Musurgia Universalis mentioned by Nick Vuci in the Discord. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)		I wanted to include Blackwood’s contributions because he names his accidentals “up” and “down” just as Kite does (see his article in Perspectives cited below). That way, if anyone comes to this page looking for information on Blackwood’s system, like I did, they aren’t confused. The naming is why I specifically cited Blackwood’s system and not other prior systems which also use arrows as accidentals, like that in Kircher’s Musurgia Universalis mentioned by Nick Vuci in the Discord. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

			However, after reviewing the Discord, I recognize that my appending to Vector’s edit was not the appropriate way to go about this, and for that I apologize. It seems I am currently unable to edit the page itself, so I wanted to propose an additional paragraph here instead to be included under “See Also”: [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

ButterBuilding11 at 08:20, 22 March 2025

2025-03-22T08:20:18Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:20, 22 March 2025
Line 32:		Line 32:

	Checking if my edits are actually saved before I type out and lose my response again. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:10, 22 March 2025 (UTC)		Checking if my edits are actually saved before I type out and lose my response again. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:10, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

			I wanted to include Blackwood’s contributions because he names his accidentals “up” and “down” just as Kite does (see his article in Perspectives cited below). That way, if anyone comes to this page looking for information on Blackwood’s system, like I did, they aren’t confused. The naming is why I specifically cited Blackwood’s system and not other prior systems which also use arrows as accidentals, like that in Kircher’s Musurgia Universalis mentioned by Nick Vuci in the Discord. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

ButterBuilding11: /* Blackwood Up and Down Accidentals */ new section

2025-03-22T08:10:42Z

Blackwood Up and Down Accidentals: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:10, 22 March 2025
Line 26:		Line 26:

	''To cancel'' means to remove the previous effect, but I think what's meant here is to completely replace the previous effect with the new effect, so that the notated down-C sounds a down-C, not a natural C. If I'm right about that, I think ''replace'' is right word to use here. ''To override'' means the same thing as ''to replace'' in this specific context so I'm not sure of the comparison between ''override'' and ''"cancel"'' in the next paragraph. I think the two approaches are addition and replacement/override. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 14:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)		''To cancel'' means to remove the previous effect, but I think what's meant here is to completely replace the previous effect with the new effect, so that the notated down-C sounds a down-C, not a natural C. If I'm right about that, I think ''replace'' is right word to use here. ''To override'' means the same thing as ''to replace'' in this specific context so I'm not sure of the comparison between ''override'' and ''"cancel"'' in the next paragraph. I think the two approaches are addition and replacement/override. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 14:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

			== Blackwood Up and Down Accidentals ==

			Apologies if I offended Kite with my previous edit.

			Checking if my edits are actually saved before I type out and lose my response again. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:10, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

FloraC at 14:47, 27 April 2024

2024-04-27T14:47:37Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:47, 27 April 2024
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	::: I'm a little confused about the last thing you said. You would never need to write ^ND under the diamond-mos standard because ^/v alone already cancel #/b. In fact, I'm not including ^N in the diamond-mos template mscz I'm making, because ^ alone has the same meaning. In general, I don't think either choice is creates more or less clutter. The "independent" rule can write D# ^D# with less clutter, and the "dependent" rule can write D# ^D with less clutter. I go with the dependent rule because it's more in line with how standard 12edo accidentals already work. [[User:SupahstarSaga\|SupahstarSaga]] ([[User talk:SupahstarSaga\|talk]]) 15:23, 31 July 2021 (UTC)		::: I'm a little confused about the last thing you said. You would never need to write ^ND under the diamond-mos standard because ^/v alone already cancel #/b. In fact, I'm not including ^N in the diamond-mos template mscz I'm making, because ^ alone has the same meaning. In general, I don't think either choice is creates more or less clutter. The "independent" rule can write D# ^D# with less clutter, and the "dependent" rule can write D# ^D with less clutter. I go with the dependent rule because it's more in line with how standard 12edo accidentals already work. [[User:SupahstarSaga\|SupahstarSaga]] ([[User talk:SupahstarSaga\|talk]]) 15:23, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
	::: Reading the page Flirora linked, I now think there's a little misunderstanding here. Your "dependent" rule requires that ups and downs always be attached to a #/b/N accidental. I agree that that causes clutter. The diamond-mos rule is different; ups and downs can appear alone, but they cancel #/b/N. You can think of diamond-mos ^/v as including implicit naturals. I don't think my rule is more or less cluttered than your "independent" rule. [[User:SupahstarSaga\|SupahstarSaga]] ([[User talk:SupahstarSaga\|talk]]) 15:27, 31 July 2021 (UTC)		::: Reading the page Flirora linked, I now think there's a little misunderstanding here. Your "dependent" rule requires that ups and downs always be attached to a #/b/N accidental. I agree that that causes clutter. The diamond-mos rule is different; ups and downs can appear alone, but they cancel #/b/N. You can think of diamond-mos ^/v as including implicit naturals. I don't think my rule is more or less cluttered than your "independent" rule. [[User:SupahstarSaga\|SupahstarSaga]] ([[User talk:SupahstarSaga\|talk]]) 15:27, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

			== Cancel ==
			> If an up-C is followed by a down-C, the down-arrow cancels the up-arrow.

			''To cancel'' means to remove the previous effect, but I think what's meant here is to completely replace the previous effect with the new effect, so that the notated down-C sounds a down-C, not a natural C. If I'm right about that, I think ''replace'' is right word to use here. ''To override'' means the same thing as ''to replace'' in this specific context so I'm not sure of the comparison between ''override'' and ''"cancel"'' in the next paragraph. I think the two approaches are addition and replacement/override. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 14:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:50, 23 March 2025
Line 26:		Line 26:

	''To cancel'' means to remove the previous effect, but I think what's meant here is to completely replace the previous effect with the new effect, so that the notated down-C sounds a down-C, not a natural C. If I'm right about that, I think ''replace'' is right word to use here. ''To override'' means the same thing as ''to replace'' in this specific context so I'm not sure of the comparison between ''override'' and ''"cancel"'' in the next paragraph. I think the two approaches are addition and replacement/override. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 14:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)		''To cancel'' means to remove the previous effect, but I think what's meant here is to completely replace the previous effect with the new effect, so that the notated down-C sounds a down-C, not a natural C. If I'm right about that, I think ''replace'' is right word to use here. ''To override'' means the same thing as ''to replace'' in this specific context so I'm not sure of the comparison between ''override'' and ''"cancel"'' in the next paragraph. I think the two approaches are addition and replacement/override. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 14:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

	~~== Blackwood Up and Down Accidentals ==~~

	~~Apologies if I offended Kite with my previous edit.~~

	~~Checking if my edits are actually saved before I type out and lose my response again. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:10, 22 March 2025 (UTC)~~

	I wanted to include Blackwood’s contributions because he names his accidentals “up” and “down” just as Kite does (see his article in Perspectives cited below). That way, if anyone comes to this page looking for information on Blackwood’s system, like I did, they aren’t confused. The naming is why I specifically cited Blackwood’s system and not other prior systems which also use arrows as accidentals, like that in Kircher’s Musurgia Universalis mentioned by Nick Vuci in the Discord. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

	However, after reviewing the Discord, I recognize that my appending to Vector’s edit was not the appropriate way to go about this, and for that I apologize. It seems I am currently unable to edit the page itself, so I wanted to propose an additional paragraph here instead to be included under “See Also”: [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

	Easley Blackwood Jr. proposed a system of microtonal accidentals in 1982 with arrows which he also names “up” and “down,” though Blackwood’s system is distinct from Kite’s as described above. Blackwood, Easley. 1991. “Modes and Chord Progressions in Equal Tunings,” ''Perspectives of New Music'' 29, no. 2. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:22, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

	I also might urge moving Kite’s credit, as it seems misplaced under the “See Also” heading, given that the article is specifically describing his system. [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:22, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

	Apologies for splitting my paragraphs across multiple posts on this talk page; for some reason, the system did not like me sending it all at once. Thank you so much! [[User:ButterBuilding11\|ButterBuilding11]] ([[User talk:ButterBuilding11\|talk]]) 08:23, 22 March 2025 (UTC)